UPDATE: Quick clarification. I had previously asked my source about the notion that Romney is behind the poll. He said it was “nonsense”. I should clarify that this is his opinion. From my conversations I gather that he does not know exactly who is behind the survey but thinks that a Romney motive is “ridiculous”. Again, he is understandably tight lipped on all this. I don’t know how much he does know.
OK, its time to debunk some of the more ridiculous things going around the blogosphere by anti-Romney forces:
Claim: Ron Lindorf and his family are the in pocket of Mitt Romney and therefore they were the source of the WW anti-Mormon calls to help his campaign.
This is silly and false:
- Ron Lindorf, the founder of Western Wats, completely divested his interests in the company in 2004.
- Ron Lindorf did not found the BYU Business School. However, Ron Lindorf is affiliated with the Center for Entrepreneurship which is affiliated with the Marriott School of Management. After retiring from WW, he now teaches a class or two at the business school.
- Ron’s sister in law, wife of Ron’s brother, Paul, is used to establish this close connection with WW. Paul retired from WW over 5 years ago in 2002. He has not been affiliated with the company in any way since that time.
Claim: Western Wats is based in Utah, filled with Mormons and many of them have given money to Romney and they instigated the call to help him.
This is stretching things altogether:
- Western Watt’s current CEO is not a Mormon.
- Perhaps as many as 6 employees have given money to Mitt Romney. Statistically, that’s even low by Utah standards (the company employs 1500 people)
- American Capital Strategies sold WW in December of 2006.
- Niel Hahl (another name to come up in the news) has not been on the board of directors since Dec. 2006. He is not directly affiliated with WW in any way.
- WW is owned by a private equity firm located in the Northeast.
- Not a single board member is Mormon, including the CEO as previously mentioned and the Chairman
Claim: It must have been the Romney camp. Why would an opposing campaign use a Utah-based Mormon-rich firm to conduct the calls?
- WW employs 1500 people across the country
- WW has numerous call centers across the country (not just in Utah)
- If you are a political entity wanting to conduct a survey or collect data WW would be one of the first firms you would call
- WW has conducted research for numerous Fortune 500 firms
- As previously notes, firms associated with other campaigns HAVE used WW in the past
- WW conducts 7000 projects a year. My estimate of a dozen projects is flat wrong. At any given moment they are conducting HUNDREDS of projects.
November 18th, 2007 at 8:56 am
It still seems crazy that this would be the firm chosen to make anti-Mormon calls.
November 18th, 2007 at 8:58 am
kmorrison – did you read the post?
They are the largest data collection firm in the world. If you were going to make any calls of any sort this firm would be at the top of your list.
November 18th, 2007 at 9:05 am
Yes. I’m not implicating anyone, it doesn’t make sense for any of the candidates to do something so stupid. However, if I’m hiring a company to make anti-Mormon calls that’s not the company I’m going to.
Really it’s just a big ball of rumors right now.
November 18th, 2007 at 9:56 am
Yes, there are plenty of rumors and speculation swirling, and it would be helpful to have a copy of the script. I am not even sure at this point that it should be called “anti-mormon” because I have not read any negative comments about mormonism.
But there are some actual facts:
1. Western Wats made the calls.
2. Western Wats has done push polls in the past. A quick google search uncovers a push poll for Lieberman against Lamont and two in Florida.
3. In this instance and one of the races in Florida, Western Wats claimed it could not release the name of its client and that it did not write the questions.
4. Romney has both personal and political connections (in the form of contributions) to Western Wats.
November 18th, 2007 at 10:06 am
Feltcher –
other facts
- Rudy has used the firm before
November 18th, 2007 at 10:26 am
The ABC morning show just mentioned that there were some similar calls on the Democratic side. The one call they mentioned brought up Elizabth Edward’s illness. Typically I’m not much of a conspiracy theorist, but it would make things interesting if all these inpropriate calls were connected. So far the big loser in this mess is the Republican party, maybe the pool of suspects should be broadened. …Just a little more rumor and speculation.
November 18th, 2007 at 10:47 am
It would be a rather extravagant display of idiocy for any of the GOP campaigns to have conducted such a poll. Which is why we shall continue to suspect all of them!
November 18th, 2007 at 11:07 am
I’m really anxious to have the investigation completed,can’t wait for it to be over with. The type of people who claim this is an inside job are the ones pulling this..
I think this person(s) is Republican, I think this person(s) is not directly affiliated with any campaign formally. Whomever pushed this poll certainly does believe what they are pushing. We’ve heard these same claims from Romney detractors for over a year now.
November 18th, 2007 at 11:14 am
Justin,
Have you been able to find out just what Western Wats did for the $400k it got from Giuiliani?
Also, why doesn’t Western Wats just release the script for the calls? Its hard to call it confidential when it has been used. A voter could have easily recorded the conversation.
November 18th, 2007 at 11:16 am
Justin,
Did you see the post from someone in South Carolina getting the same calls from “Research Data Design”?
November 18th, 2007 at 11:18 am
It seems obvious it was done by someone intentionally throwing up a smoke screen. They’re positive on McCain, but McCain is not a threat in those states. They used a firm in Utah, and if Romney was going to do it, a Utah firm is the LAST place he would use.
Now they’re reporting the same calls in South Carolina….
November 18th, 2007 at 11:37 am
This episode has only proven one thing so far, and that is that the RomNots will seize any contingency for the trashing of Mitt,…including the trashing of Mitt.
November 18th, 2007 at 11:41 am
Shawnie,
I think this was done be a McCain sympathizer. McCain knows that if he comes in anywhere less than 2nd in NH, he’s done. Rudy has legs to take him beyond NH should he lose both IA & NH, McCain does not, he’ll be finished.
Furthermore, since these same calls were favorable to John McCain, why would a Romney supporter pull this to implicate McCain? John McCain is no threat to Romney in IA or NH, but the reverse is true. There is certainly more of an incentive for a rouge McCain sympathizer to pull this verses a supporter for anyone else. Could even be former Brownback supporters.
At any rate, this is all speculation and finger pointing. The investigation needs to be expedited so this can be put to rest.
November 18th, 2007 at 12:02 pm
I think that the same people pushing this discredited conspiratorial hooey are the folks who claim that a Mitt Presidency would invite a large “Mormon Mafia” to infiltrate the US government — pure hogwash.
November 18th, 2007 at 12:09 pm
Great post, Justin! Thanks for your hard work!
November 18th, 2007 at 12:11 pm
Utah is full of call centers. They should change it’s name from the Beehive state to the Boiler-Room state. So many companies outsource to Utah, it’s like the Bangalore of the Mountain West. Rattling off call-centers and accounts from the top of my head, there’s: Ebay, Tahitian Noni, Modus, Convergys, Teleperformance, Investools, BRG Research, Cisco Systems, etc…
So the surprising thing, isn’t that someone hired a Utah firm for the data collection, it would be surprising if Utah was not involved in the process.
November 18th, 2007 at 12:13 pm
There aren’t enough facts to rule anyone out. And it seems the media is already losing interest in the story, I guess because this isn’t the first or last time it will happen. I also suspect the NH investigation will go nowhere because Western Wats is certain to fight any subpoena.
The long-term implications may be that congress needs to pass its own push-polling legislation or perhaps the FEC should get involved, but I haven’t heard anything like this proposed.
November 18th, 2007 at 12:51 pm
In other Romney news, Fred says Mitt is a bit thin-skinned.
Aren’t you guys getting a bit tired of the push poll/message testing fuss? Was it Robert Redford? Harry Reid? Me? You?
I’d be amazed if we ever know who ordered the thing. I figure there’s about a 99 percent chance that there will never be any clear links to any of the campaigns on either side. And contrary to Dave above, I’m not certain that a Mitt friend might not have taken an opportunity to defuse a potential time-bomb of an issue in advance of the meaner campaigning to come. I think a Wats guy already told Justin that the whole thing is blown way, way out of proportion.
November 18th, 2007 at 12:59 pm
#20 – I watched that Thompson interview. He was looking really old!
November 18th, 2007 at 1:03 pm
I didn’t watch the video, but if Fred Thinks that these kind of bigoted attacks are fair game, he really is an idiot.
November 18th, 2007 at 1:17 pm
The post&comments miss the most important fact – That people like Iowa state representive (and Romney supporter) Ralph Watts, or chairman of the Sioux County (Iowa) GOP Mark Lundberg were on the call list. Whomever made these calls wanted this to become a scandal.
November 18th, 2007 at 1:19 pm
When I said that we’d see anti-Mormon attacks, everyone said I was being too speculative; that we wouldn’t necessarily see that because “Oh, oh, Giuliani’s Catholic, blah blah blah, what about that.” And now that we see one tiny little dumb attack that’s being roundly condemned by all parties involved, we see nothing but crying and whining from the Mormons on this board. This is going to happen
ALL
YEAR
LONG
if Mitt Romney is the nominee. Is your only response going to be to cry and whine?
November 18th, 2007 at 1:19 pm
“by all parties involved” = involved in the Race 4 ‘08, that is. All the candidates, etc.
November 18th, 2007 at 1:21 pm
I do not think that we should mince words here. Mitt is the victim of a hate crime and this should be investigated as such.
November 18th, 2007 at 1:30 pm
A hate crime?! A hate crime!? By what statute!?
For cryin’ out loud is this getting ludicrous!
November 18th, 2007 at 1:35 pm
From Wikipedia; “Hate crimes (also known as bias motivated crimes) occur when a perpetrator targets a victim because of his or her membership in a certain social group, usually defined by race, religion, sexual orientation, disability, ethnicity, nationality, age, gender, gender identity, or political affiliation.”
November 18th, 2007 at 1:39 pm
And the crime is? Is it now against the law to mention that Mitt Romney is a Mormon? Or is it now illegal to criticize candidates for the presidency?
Man, you guys really seem hell-bent on making this into some sort of an issue!
November 18th, 2007 at 1:42 pm
So what if its a hate crime, as a conservative I don’t think there should be hate crimes anyway.
November 18th, 2007 at 1:45 pm
markG,
The point is we are talking about an historially oppressed faith tradition and religious minority that has experienced much discrimination and persecution, so yes some sensitivity to that horrible legacy is in order when considering this disgusting and un-American incident of bigotry and hate.
November 18th, 2007 at 1:49 pm
Mitt Romney is not the first person that springs to mind when we talk about someone who has been oppressed. Does not compute!
If everything that offended and disgusted me were a crime: look out world, lemme tell ya!!
November 18th, 2007 at 1:50 pm
JA Pruce calm down, campaigns get dirty, and I would certainly be careful getting all outraged, it may have even been a camp sensitive to Romney.
November 18th, 2007 at 1:53 pm
MarkG,
This issue goes beyond Governor Romney. We would not tolerate a candidate being taunted with burning crosses or swastikas and we should not tolerate these anti-mormon slurs. I believe that this bigoted push-polling will backfire big time.
November 18th, 2007 at 2:07 pm
Justin: “Rudy has used the firm before”
Hasn’t it been established that Rudy has spent $400K with the Tarance Group? And that the Tarance Group has, in the past, hired WW? It’s a matter of public record.
November 18th, 2007 at 2:08 pm
Can someone tell me what exactly is “anti-mormon” about what was said? Specifics please because I have not read anything that qualifies. Anti-Romney, yes; anti-mormon, no.
November 18th, 2007 at 2:09 pm
Justin:
“If you are a political entity wanting to conduct a survey or collect data WW would be one of the first firms you would call”
“Rudy has used the firm before”
Doesn’t the first make the second meaningless, even it had been true?
November 18th, 2007 at 2:09 pm
OT: This article reveals Rudy’s line
of thinking about figting crime.
“The boldness of such a metaphor–that the world is nothing more than a really, really big New York City–is unmistakable; a Giuliani presidency would test whether or not the metaphor actually is true. One thing is clear, however. You sometimes hear that Giuliani is a cipher, that he has hidden or downplayed his true self in order to appeal to the Republican primary electorate, and the American electorate more generally. Nothing could be further from the truth. His instincts, his thoughts, his goals, his tactics, his audacity–it is all there in the open, like it or not, as it has been from the beginning.”
http://weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/014/371rhqnv.asp?pg=2
November 18th, 2007 at 2:15 pm
Well, I see that many subsequent comments to my #12 have borne out what I was saying. What the push polling in question is all about is the initiation of fraud with intent to subvert the democratic election process by means of smearing the members of a peaceful and productive religion who have a history of being targeted for discrimination and violence. Personally, I believe that the concept of “hate crimes” is a false dichotomy, but what is involved here is worse.
November 18th, 2007 at 2:15 pm
Yes, FEC records show Rudy hired The Tarance Group, NOT Western Wats.
WW stipulated in writing yesterday they have not been working for the Tarance Group.
NOW HOW THE HELL DOES JUSTIN GET AWAY WITH STATING RUDY HIRED WESTERN WATS, WHEN JUSTIN IS ONE OF THE MOST INFORMED PEOPLE IN THE WORLD ON THIS SUBJECT???
November 18th, 2007 at 2:23 pm
Somebody post the Mike Huckabee/Chuck Norris ad… Great, great ad:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjYv2YW6azE
November 18th, 2007 at 2:26 pm
#36 Feltcher: “Can someone tell me what exactly is “anti-mormon†about what was said? Specifics please because I have not read anything that qualifies. Anti-Romney, yes; anti-mormon, no.”
I’ve seen the reports of what was said and I’m curious about which specific alleged statements, Romney supporters classify as anti-mormon.
November 18th, 2007 at 2:32 pm
#41 I saw the ad on FOX this morning.
November 18th, 2007 at 2:34 pm
Anyone who believes what Justin says on these subjects should read the Huffington Post to get their GOP news.
November 18th, 2007 at 2:38 pm
http://campaignspot.nationalreview.com/post/?q=YmM2ZmU1NGRmZmQ4Y2IzNzI0ZWI0ZThjZTJiYzUwY2Q=
November 18th, 2007 at 2:48 pm
Tony Blair implies the necessity for a Rudy Presidency:
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ODkyZjg3NDgwMzRjODY3MTE1YmFkZjYxNTA2OWJiOGE=
November 18th, 2007 at 2:50 pm
J Smith? Huh? What?
November 18th, 2007 at 2:51 pm
#44 – ??
November 18th, 2007 at 2:58 pm
All of this bickering is pointless.
The attacks on Mormonism continues, no duh. People who attack Mormons all of the time are 3rd graders and need a life.
This story has been propped up as something to symbolize what is going on in the country right now – and that is people taking the opportunity to say that Mormons are a bunch of weirdos.
Some members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints are very upset about people trying to kick Romney out of the nomination and/or election because of his religion. To you guyz, I say, chill.
Anybody who really knows what the so-called “mormon” church is about realize that it contains a lot of Christlike principles and a respect for reverence of the Cross and Gethsemane above many other churches. The more people find out how evil the mormon church is, the more confused they will become, because the fact of the matter is, Mormons have a lot going for them.
So please, mormon buddies, chill out and realize that this is not the end of the world. Mitt Romney may not get the presidency because of people’s bias of the horned mormons, so be it, America will get whatever it deserves in 2008, and I hope they pick a great person for president. If they don’t want a mormon as a president, they can live without. That’s democracy. God bless America.
November 18th, 2007 at 2:58 pm
Justin, you’re back, but failed to answer #40 or retract #5.
November 18th, 2007 at 2:59 pm
Mitt’s lost 3 points on Intrade today, interesting. Back down to 28.3.
November 18th, 2007 at 3:00 pm
Justin, here’s the FEC report of expenditures for Rudy’s campaign:
http://query.nictusa.com/pres/2007/Q3/C00430512/B_PAYEE_C00430512.html
November 18th, 2007 at 3:10 pm
MR – cool it on the big bold… I’ll answer
It wasn’t me who first linked Rudy / Tarrance and WW. (it was J Martin on Politico) I was making an extension of logic just like you will if it turns out to be a rogue Mitt consultant.
I will rescind and revise my statement. We know that the Tarrance group has used WW and we know that Rudy paid the Tarrance group a nice sum. There is no evidence that Rudy used WWs services directly.
I was trying to make the point that this isn’t some willy-nilly Mormon-run operation and that other political entities have used it in the past.
November 18th, 2007 at 3:13 pm
Thank you.
Not only is there no evidence Rudy used WW directly, but WW put it in writing that they were not used indirectly by the Tarance Group recently.
For the record, if it’s an individual who’s pro-Mitt and thought it would help Mitt, that’s no more damning toward Mitt than it would be toward Rudy if it were an individual who was pro-Rudy and thought it would help Rudy. But either would suffer anyway.
November 18th, 2007 at 3:16 pm
[...] Western Wats’ denials that this whole thing is associated with the Mitt Romney campaign here, here, and [...]
November 18th, 2007 at 3:25 pm
What keeps striking me is how stupid it would be for any particular candidate, or even a rougue follower to do this from a risk vs. reward stand point. It’s extremely risky for Romney or McCain because their both tied to the incident via the call, and would be under the most scrutiny, and the rewards seem to be little to none. The only way it would help Giuliani is if he were terribly desperate. Considering he doesn’t need to win IA, is in the mix in NH, and is leading nationally, that doesn’t make sense either. Also, while this may be simplistic, going to a UT company to make ‘anti-mormon’ calls seems extremely risky (and I note Feltcher’s point that maybe they were anti-Romney and not anti-Morman, but it still seems risky). Finally, arguments for one of the other candidates/supporters doing this does’t seem to click either. Who ever did do it would have to have money, and one would think if they had any level of intelligence, that they would have thought that either they wouldn’t get caught, or if they did get caught it wouldn’t be that harmful. So even while I admit that the ‘broaden the search’ argument might be a little far fetched, it doesn’t seem any crazier than than the arguments for a specific candidate.
November 18th, 2007 at 3:26 pm
Justin,
It’s almost like Romney seems innocent when the accusations directed at Romney are viewed thru the prism of a standing member of a get-Mitt-elected-in-08 committee.
November 18th, 2007 at 3:36 pm
Justin is #55 acurate?
November 18th, 2007 at 3:39 pm
Outside the debate you’ve framed I know more than a few Mittbots owe McCain an apology. I’ll start with Kevin McCullough who called McCain an anti-Mormon bigot in the wake of this scandal. Then conveniently “disappeared” it when he didn’t have the goods to back himself up. Luckily yours truly was able to nab a screenshot.
before:
http://bp2.blogger.com/_R8y-oEhNpOA/Rz0s23R0z3I/AAAAAAAAAA8/TJ7yt-5qEIs/s400/lies.JPG
after:
http://bp3.blogger.com/_R8y-oEhNpOA/Rz3ifHR0z4I/AAAAAAAAABE/K0uuY-_2t8U/s1600-h/bah!.bmp
November 18th, 2007 at 3:39 pm
Justin Hart # 5
“other facts – Rudy has used the firm beforeâ€
Are you implying Rudy’s campaign is behind this? Your nonchalant comment… “Rudy has used the firm before†is incongruent with your post:
“WW has conducted research for numerous Fortune 500 firmsâ€
“As previously notes, firms associated with other campaigns HAVE used WW in the pastâ€
“WW conducts 7000 projects a year. My estimate of a dozen projects is flat wrong. At any given moment they are conducting HUNDREDS of projects.â€
In case you missed it, Rudy’s pollster has been absolved:
“The only group who definitely knows, Western Wats, isn’t saying. They issued a statement Thursday night absolving Giuliani’s pollster — who was fingered by a McCain aide yesterday — but cited a confidentiality policy in declining to disclose their client.â€
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1107/6946.html
Furthermore, in a statement from Rudy Giuliani’s Communications Director Katie Levinson on recent reports of this phone calls being made in Iowa, New Hampshire and South Carolina, she said:
“There is no room for this sort of thing in politics. Our campaign does not support or engage in these types of tactics and it is our hope other campaigns will adhere to the same policy.â€
Knowing that Western Wats will not release the name of the perpetrator due to their confidentiality policy, it is easy for Romney to cry, whine, point fingers, and throw doubt towards other candidates while presenting himself as the VICTIM of this flap, and gaining in the polls.
This is exactly the role his campaign talked about 3 months ago, and it was published in the Deseret Morning News, Aug. 10:
There appears to be no hurry. As one Romney aide explained, “when people attack his religion he becomes an underdog, and people like underdogs.”
This whole event benefits Romney. He not only deflects questions about his religion, but also simultaneously silences others (don’t ask me any questions about my Mormonism or I’ll cry bigotry!). He also takes the spot light away from Rudy and the other candidates and generates sympathy for himself, thus the whole dynamic works to increase his standing in the polls.
November 18th, 2007 at 3:40 pm
Outside the debate you’ve framed I know more than a few Mittbots owe McCain an apology. I’ll start with Kevin McCullough who called McCain an anti-Mormon bigot in the wake of this scandal. Then conveniently “disappeared†it when he didn’t have the goods to back himself up. Luckily yours truly was able to nab a screenshot.
http://eldude.blogspot.com
November 18th, 2007 at 3:43 pm
sampo, as usual, digging up dirt on other people to expose how evil and awful Romney is.
Don’t quit your day job
November 18th, 2007 at 3:46 pm
I see that many people here obviously have no problem with these personal – and politically irrelevent – attacks, fine. I’ll remember that for later – because you can certainly pull up a lot more personal dirt on a person like Giuliani than you can on Romney.
Attempting to use Mormonism against Romney is unacceptable – and anything accept complete condemnation of these attacks by anyone is sickening.
November 18th, 2007 at 3:53 pm
I’d be very curious to hear from Justin if he’s part of the campaign or just a supporter.
November 18th, 2007 at 4:03 pm
jrcutler,
it’s a shame you consider what I do to be worse than a prominant blogger featured on townhall and worldnetdaily calling McCain a bigot. that’s why you and your peers are called mittbots because the end justifies the means.
November 18th, 2007 at 4:04 pm
kmorrison, Justin is a member of Romney’s Faith & Values Committee, it’s a matter of public record.
Victoria, I disagree. Mormonism will hurt Romney. You ain’t seen nothing yet on that topic, I’m sure.
ACT, the difference is that Rudy has teflon because he’s a national hero and he’s lovable. Mitt’s not and many see him as an animatron or phony. Attacks stick to Mitt. They don’t stick to Rudy.
November 18th, 2007 at 4:06 pm
64,
plain as day.
from mittromney.com
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:J7bUgnPJ7bEJ:www.mittromney.com/News/Press-Releases/National_Faith_Values_Committee+%22justin+hart,+Vice+President+of+Communications,+%22+site:mittromney.com&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a
November 18th, 2007 at 4:09 pm
No… let me make it clear. My “one” source said the notion that this leads back to Romney is “nonsense”. He didn’t deny that it could be some “rogue” consultant but he said it highly unlikely.
I would not agree with the statement that they denied it was Romney.
The basis of this post was simply to show how silly some of the evidence is that supposedly links this to Romney.
November 18th, 2007 at 4:10 pm
Wow, so much for my broaden the search theory. Maybe I should just go back to playing Clue.
November 18th, 2007 at 5:10 pm
I’ve hit up my Western Wats contacts and they weren’t directly involved with the matter, so they’re in the dark too. With all the NDA’s there’s nothing short of a subpoena that will pry the information out into the public.
The only rational explanations for ‘whodunnit’ I can came up with are an interested pro or anti-Romney 3rd party. Assuming a pro-Romney party, fessing up would seriously damage their favored candidate. However, assuming an anti-Romney party, owning up to the poll would conversely give Romney a boost. There’s no end to the hypothetical culprits and motivations for these shennanigans. We’ll have to wait for more facts before even thinking about assigning blame.
By the way, Justin, who is Romney’s internal pollster? Knowing a bit more about Romney’s polling practices could help educate people on his methodology.
November 18th, 2007 at 5:19 pm
Folks… be sure you read my update on the post above:
UPDATE: Quick clarification. I had previously asked my source about the notion that Romney is behind the poll. He said it was “nonsense”. I should clarify that this is his opinion. From my conversations I gather that he does not know exactly who is behind the survey but thinks that a Romney motive is “ridiculous”. Again, he is understandably tight lipped on all this.
November 18th, 2007 at 5:25 pm
Wow, so Team Romney (of which Justin Hart is an official member) is now moving in the direction of allowing for the possibility that Team Romney itself is behind this?????
November 18th, 2007 at 5:40 pm
Metro,
That’s a non sequiter. Clearly, anything is a possibility in light of the fact that we haven’t got a clue…all of which makes your idle speculation on the subject a waste of your valuable time and a threat to my good disposition.
November 18th, 2007 at 5:42 pm
Metro’s time is valuable? who knew?
November 18th, 2007 at 5:45 pm
JA #34: We would not tolerate a candidate being taunted with burning crosses or swastikas and we should not tolerate these anti-mormon slurs.
I have yet to hear that Romney is being taunted with burning crosses or swastikas. None of what we have heard from the scripts go beyond praising McCain and criticizing Mitt — all on the basis of rather established facts. At least outside the LDS church, no one is obliged to share the views of the faithful. Reports of the excommunication, denunciation, and ostracism experienced by ex-Mormons do not make for a good example of tolerance.
I don’t know what your beliefs are and it’s none of my business. But if you find the poll questions offensive, all I can say is: Brace yourself! There is a lot of scathing criticism out there on the web.
November 18th, 2007 at 5:49 pm
MR – you’re a silly man.
I’m not paid by the campaign and the position I hold on the Faith and Values Committee does not require me to even endorse Romney… just advise him.
This Committee has had all of 3 conference calls. You’re welcome to employ synecdoche as a a weapon against Romney just be honest about the tactic.
November 18th, 2007 at 6:12 pm
MarkG,
It’s not a matter of tolerance, it’s a matter of standards. We keep ours high, because we are commanded by our Father in Heaven to do so. Also, we don’t ostracize anybody and denunciation of individuals isn’t our policy or our style. If we were excommunicating that many people, we wouldn’t be building 400 new churches every year, we’d be selling them off. In short, your post is yet another excuse to Mormon bash on a site focused on campaigns for a SECULAR office…all of which makes you right about at least one thing…it’s none of your business.
November 18th, 2007 at 6:24 pm
It sure is our business if the Republican party is considering taking a risk on a candidate with a fringe religion that could cost us the White House.
November 18th, 2007 at 7:01 pm
This may be a silly question, but does anyone have a recording or transcript of any of these “offensive” calls? While I do not deny that they may be pretty bad, all of the articles I have read quote individuals who are just aghast at the questions they were asked, but were pretty vague on the actual content thereof.
November 18th, 2007 at 7:05 pm
Metro #77,
Sure it’s a risk that Romney’s religion will be used against him in the general election. But so also can Rudy’s long sordid history of marital infidelity (on the public dime, I might add). In fact, according to various polls, Rudy’s is the bigger risk.
The true difference is that YOU seem to prefer publically financed marital infidelity to religious practice.
November 18th, 2007 at 7:07 pm
Metro,
Fringe religion?? Worldwide, there are more Mormons than there are Jews! It’s the 4th largest denomination in America, and the fastest growing. It’s precisely for this reason that small children in Evangelical families are being taught that we are evil. If their parents didn’t teach them this, even more of their children would grow up and convert to our church than are doing so now. If we weren’t growing, nobody would care. In spite of this, many Mormons have been elected to major offices. If it were an electoral problem, Mitt wouldn’t be ahead or essentially tied in the first 6 states.
November 18th, 2007 at 7:34 pm
“It’s precisely for this reason that small children in Evangelical families are being taught that we are evil.”
Huh? I assure you that this is not true. Mormonism, or any other faith, simply does not come up (at least not that I have heard). A lot of preachers/priests will reference “non-believers,” but I have always understood this to mean atheists.
November 18th, 2007 at 8:15 pm
Dave #76: We keep ours high, because we are commanded by our Father in Heaven to do so.
If I want celestial instruction, I’ll select a church, not elect a president.
It wasn’t me who told Mitt to pander to religious conservatives by telling them his values were like theirs and derived from his religious beliefs. But since he did, it is only logical that his religion will be thoroughly inspected by us non-Saints! It is because of Romney’s sales strategy that it is absolutely, fundamentally every bit of my business to wonder about what all his faith entails without going through the highest offices of his church!
#81: Worldwide, there are more Mormons than there are Jews!
First of all, that’s the official LDS accounting, which is not necessarily the last word to be consulted on the matter. Secondly, so what? If you’re going to use international figures beyond Christianity, Mormons are dwarfed by Muslims, Hindus, Taoists, and Confucians. Now what’s that supposed to tell us?
And if the LDS church were so large, I really wonder why some of its members sound almost as if they had a persecution complex.
November 18th, 2007 at 8:23 pm
Murphy,
Well said.
November 18th, 2007 at 8:54 pm
I want to declare “Amen” to TLG’s comment in #24. Well, perhaps not his claim about how we Mitt supporters are whiners, but that this is only a surface of things to come, especially if Mitt does win the nomination. You can bet that MSM won’t be there to point out those bigotic attacks. They will make any objection looking ridiclous. And this is one of the biggest reasons why a few LDS friends of mine refuse to support Mitt — they do not want to experience those kind of attacks. Oh well, I do not know about other of you Mitt supporters, but I have expected this, and I expect there to be many more attacks. This is only a hint of what is coming.
November 18th, 2007 at 9:42 pm
Metro, I get why Rudybots have to bad mouth Romney’s mormon faith. It seems obvious that in the arena, you and your Rudybots lose in a debate of ideas, campaign strategy, etc. Why not make Romneys faith the issue than.
I am sure that Rudy and Judy’s 6 marriages between them will unearth more dirt by the MSM in a general election than would a “fringe faith” like mine (as you like to call it). Are dems really going to make mormonism the issue in a general with Romney when their top leader in the senate is also a Mormon too. Would they through their own guy under the bus like that? I doubt it because its irrelevant in the arena or ideas and discourse. Only fools like you try to make it relevant.