I was really leaning towards Huckabee until I saw these two ads. I know in the past he let me know that he was a Christian leader, but now I’m not so sure as neither of these ads made clear where he stands with God. Very disappointing.
No surprises that the 1st ad focuses on “family” (code: social issues)
Interesting that the 2nd ad focuses on illegal immigration. I wouldn’t have thought it was an area where Mike was strong. Is he doing this to pre-empt future negative ads?
Jeff, are you saying that because he doesn’t mention God in these ads you no longer support him?
I expect that Huckabee will take on the consultants and move mainstream to try and capture the center. Not that it helped John Edwards in 2004. So I expect that now he’s proven his christian-ness, he’ll try and prove theirs more to his candidacy than social conservatism…
Why doesnt he run an ad talking about how his campaign funds, like feeding the 5000 in the bible, go a long way and that his lead was brought to him by God. Then something like “Im Mike Huckabee and I approved this message, and so does God. He told me so.”
3 – I’m confused – these ads make me think that Huckabee has fallen out of favor with his Christian leadership since he’s not making that distinction clear in these ads.
Aside from that misstep, a fact check is in order. On the second ad, Huckabee should have included his rationale for his stance on illegal immigration – and that being that he drinks a different ‘Jesus-juice’ than the ‘enforce the borders’ crowd. I would have found the inclusion of that remark more enlightening and helpful for his campaign. I mean if for whatever reason he can’t let me know that he’s still a Christian leader, at least he can include the fact that he’s drinking the right Jesus-juice, right?
Also, I only watched the ads once, so I might have missed the part where he’s championing for scholarship opportunities for illegal immigrants. This is of great appeal to me as it demonstrates that Mike Huckabee knows how best to spend my tax dollars. After all, once I pay tax, it is up to the executive to redistribute that money to fund college expenses for illegal immigrants who don’t use drugs and who got a ‘C’ average while attending at least their senior year in school.
As for the first ad, it is simple to tout economic growth while you are increasing the tax burden on your citizens. Does anyone imagine that there is a direct correlation between government job growth and government spending due to tax increases? Hmm…
So, overall, I’d rate these as feel-good ads. Not the most accurate that team Huckabee has produced by any stretch.
Huckabee has to draw the narrative away from comments like #9. If the public lock in the perception that the GOP are nominating a preaching joking pastor who can’t be taken seriously then he is dead meat against whoever the Dems nominate. Very hard to overcome those perceptions…
8 – darn straight. I will only vote for the ’stand up for God’ guy. I thought I had found that person in pastor governor huckabee, but with these ads, i’m left scratching my head…
For people who say that Huck doesn’t do any attacking . . . the fact that he constantly says he’s an “Authentic Conservative” is a none-too-veiled swipe at Romney’s character.
Romney has taken most of the candidates to task on their records or policies . . . but Huckabee’s attack at Romney here is a deeply personal one and is below-the-belt IMO. He’s claiming that Romney’s “UN-Authentic” and that is the politics of negative attacking as bad as I’ve seen.
Let me tell you all that Romney is completely authentic. I’ve met with him personally and seen him on the campaign trail at multiple events.
There is nothing “un-authentic” about him. He’s a man who has kept his campaign promises and kept the promises in his personal life. You DO know what you’re getting in Governor Mitt Romney. He has more character than most of the other candidates could ever hope to have.
I think his efforts in NH are in vain. I get that he has risen nationally because of his support among evangelicals, but NH isnt exactly evangelical country.
I still think Romney has about a 45% chance to win IA, and that he has a 75% chance to win NH. Rudy gets 4th in IA, 3rd in NH, and becomes irrelevant. Thompson gets 3rd in IA, 6th in NH, and drops out.
1. Mitt or Huck win IA, order not known yet
2. Mitt wins NH (ahead today by about 13% in RCP and early voting starts tomorrow)
3. Mitt wins Wyoming
4. Mitt wins MI, or comes in a very close 2nd to Huck
5. NV and SC, Mitt wins one (probably NV), Huck wins the other. The other gets 2nd place where he loses.
That said, how is Rudy even a player in January. He doesnt have a national lead any longer, and isnt ahead in any early states except Florida (which isnt even that early really).
Someone’s got to make a juxtaposed YouTube of that commercial with his previous (and some current) stances laid out to contradict his current words.
And Romney’s not Authentic?
Point to ONE thing in Huckabee’s RECORD that proves that he’s tough on immigration.
Similarly, point out one thing in Huckabee’s record that proves that he had a committment to tax reform (a la the Fair Tax) before he needed a free field team in the run up to the Ames Straw Poll.
This guy’s a total sham. I hope Americans take note sooner than later. That he hasn’t had time to get a thorough vetting is not a good reason to chose him as the GOP nominee. The Dems will have plenty of time to do their oppo research and Huckabee will be toast.
I just saw this link to Huckabee’s troubling record of releasing criminals that went on to commit more crime or flee authorities (yes, it looks like it’s a LOT more than Wayne Dumond)
11 – I agree, however, I learned a valuable lesson as a young child while I watched my sweet mother labor over the hot stove in the kitchen. She would always tell me that it is best to simmer the vegetables before the guests arrive. It took a long time and many a crunchy vegetable before I became convinced that she was right. It’s the same situation here, are we going to server our guests crunchy vegetables, or make certain that we have that pot simmering just long enough so that the carrots are tender.
Rudy needs Huck to win Iowa, and then he needs to win NH as Mitt collapses after a poor Iowa result.
If Mitt wins the first two then its over, he’ll take the lot as he’s in a strong position in the other early voting states too. If Huck wins Iowa & then South Carolina (unlikely to rocket to NH 1st) he’ll be very hard to block.
Jeff, the voters have to a certain extent tired of Mitt, MaC, Rudy & Thommo. So Huck’s rise is sort of natural. The question is, will people tire of him in tire for Ron Paul (surely not Duncan Hunter?) to be the “not scrutinised enough so voted for” candidate?
I could post a hundred links to ads that would cast Romney in a bad light. In fact most of them that I have seen criticize Huck and Romney. Most of that hype is created by far-left loons who would disparage anyone of faith including Romney.
15 – I don’t understand why the anti-Huck crowd is getting their feathers ruffled over Huckabee’s ‘1 for 5′ plan… you know, release 1 convicted felon every 5 days while in office…
Some readers on this site might not be aware that Gov Huckabee is an accomplished author. In fact, I read one of his books one time which contained this telling bit of poetry:
Little Johnny
Little Johnny was naughty
And was sitting in jail
He dreamed to go free
But instead, picked at his nails
Johnny’s fortunes changed
With Governor Huckabee
For Johnny was ‘Saved’
and Huck set him free
Now Johnny never forgot
His time in the can
But nothing could stop
His crime spree again…..
I went to RCP and Im convinced now more than ever that Hucks shoestring funds are a waste in NH. In the last 6 months, Romney lowest in the polls are 24% (twice) and todays poll at 25%. About 75% of the polls in the past few months show Romneys numbers higher than Rudy and McCain combined. He was at 37% in several polls these past few months. Hucks bounce has seemed to work in most places in the country lately, but I dont think he will be a player in NH at all, regardless of what might happen in IA. I think that he might be seen as Pat Robertson (former Christian IA winner too) come mid January. Romney should hold NH, and be competitive beyond that. I still think Rudy becomes irrelevant as January goes on.
If Huck isn’t a true conservative (just as Thompson wasn’t, and Mitt isn’t authentic enough) maybe its not too late for Jim Gilmore to come back into the race. Looks like he’d have more of a chance in the POTUS race than against Warner in Virginia…
26 – my pastor told me today to get on board with Huckabee because ‘good things happen when we’re on God’s side’… so I was hoping for exactly what you cited – I too want to have him declare his faith with every ad… it makes me feel good to know that we are united in faith and knowing that all of these attacks being thrown at Huckabee only serve to strengthen him and make him a stronger candidate. All this talk about immigration and the economy is giving me a headache – I just need Huckabee to tell me a witty story and I’ll be able to calm down.
Jeff (#28) I’m not joking when I say Gilmore has more of a chance in the POTUS race, but it doesn’t exactly mean much given his terrible situation in Virginia against an extremely popular former Governor.
At some point the conservative base will realise that Mike isn’t a true conservative either (fiscally & on immigration). At that point they will either try and find yet another candidate (Paul or Hunter) or look fo rhte best from whats available rather than dreaming. At that point it becomes a shoot out between Mitt & Rudy. Methinks. Unless Mike’s momentum lasts long enough to keep him in the top two in Iowa…
We waste our time on Hucks weakness on immigration, taxes, and releasing rapists, and we dont give enough attention to his comments today to close Gitmo and never using waterboarding. If we suggest water boarding is torture, is tazering someone also torture.
“He’s a man who has kept his campaign promises…you DO know what you’re getting in Governor Mitt Romney.”
OK. Let’s dissect that one. Mitt campaigned for governor as a “pro-choice” candidate. Once in office, he became “pro-life.” And, he governed that way. Let’s ignore the “why” or the sincerity of said converstion. Bottom line, campaign promise: broken. After all, there’s “not a paper’s worth of difference between [Romney] and Ted Kennedy on abortion.”
Huckabee will wither in the spotlight. I can’t wait to see Romney this Wednesday mop the floor with the other candidates in the Iowa debate (it is this Wed right?).
I also loved seeing Huck on FNS. Chris Wallace basically said “WADR, Gov., but I don’t think that’s true.”
Americans are not dumb. They are going to see Mike cop-out of his past record. I lived near Arkansas for a year, and thought they were pretty bright as well. I guess they just don’t care about their politicians telling the truth, or they have short attention spans.
#29 – No way, yours too. By the grace of God. This truly is a miracle. Jesus feeding the multitude here in the twenty-first century via Mike Huckabee. I mean…just think about it for a second. My pastor tells me to vote for the only true Christian on the very same day that yours tells you the same thing…I mean it’s just putting 2 and 2 together. It’s a miracle. Just like a bumblebee doesn’t know it’s not supposed to fly…Pastor Huckabee didn’t know he’d be able to get anywhere in this election, and look what the man has done. If he can lead the country in the same manner by not paying attention to his surroundings or what’s happened in the past, or what the experts say, and just listening to his heart, and what Jesus would do, it’s going to be a very different place.
Husky, you may have just uttered the most ridiculous thing ever: “If we suggest waterboarding is torture, is tazering someone also torture?”
Ok, first, they have nothing to do with one another. Tazering is done to subdue a criminal without causing lasting harm (aka, better than shooting them). Waterboarding is done to a currently defenseless person without provocation. Regardless of whether waterboarding is right or wrong, it has no resemblance to tazering. You, sir, are being a Dumbocrat in public. I ask you to refrain.
“He’s a man who has kept his campaign promises…you DO know what you’re getting in Governor Mitt Romney.â€
OK. Let’s dissect that one. Mitt campaigned for governor as a “pro-choice†candidate. Once in office, he became “pro-life.†And, he governed that way. Let’s ignore the “why†or the sincerity of said converstion. Bottom line, campaign promise: broken. After all, there’s “not a paper’s worth of difference between [Romney] and Ted Kennedy on abortion.â€
I’ll take the opinion of a Retinal-vitreous surgeon (Jeff F. is one wicked smart guy) any day over that of a pastor who just keeps saying things like “I probably wouldn’t have said it that way NOW,” or “That’s just Arkansas politics as usual.”
32 – you make an amazingly articulate argument as to why we cannot trust or support Huckabee. I’ll leave it to your brilliant mind to see if you can figure out the contradictions in your statement.
#38, Jeff, I was serious about how funny you are. But, I’m missing how my statement in #32 has anything to do with Huckabee. I don’t support him or Romney. I’m going to need YOUR brilliant mind to point out the contradictions in my statement.
#34, If Mitt mopped the floor with Huck, it would be the first time.
That’s true. He was being nice to him since his campaign was struggling for the first 10 months. You won’t see Mitt take shots at Tancredo because tancredo has nil possibilities of winning Iowa. Mitt is going to show some tough love in the next few weeks. Everybody is going to know about Huck’s Flip-Flopping on AIDS, immigration, Taxes, and Crime enforcement.
35 – It is truly a miracle as you say. I thought that our youth minister went over the line a little bit when he posted a sign on the lemonade table that said ‘water turned into lemonade’ compliments of Pastor Gov. Mike Huckabee, but we all got a good chuckle and enjoyed the pot luck. No doubt that Huckabee isn’t supposed to be doing what he’s doing – it is not a human force to be sure that is propelling him onward. I’ve been praying daily to strengthen Mike and help him to stand up to Mr. Nasty and the rest of the non-believers on the stage with him tonight. I mean he is one of us and that give me so much comfort. He tells the funniest stories – I could listen to Mike for hours on end and not notice how numb my butt is from the pew – the guy is a real gift from above – a gift that will help deliver the nation back to Christ. I was so inspired when I read through his remarks from a few years ago when he talked about bringing the nation back to Christ – my goodness, the guy is amazing. Anyway, I should probably get going – I need to help my pastor finish stamping the Mike Huckabee mailers. I’m also pulling together the list of our little flock here to send up to Mike’s campaign – it’s all in the family, so it’s OK, right? God bless!
#42, Mitt has dome Mediocre at best in any debate so far. He proved what he was capable of in the last debate, when he acted like a child arguing with Guiliani.
#42, Mitt has dome Mediocre at best in any debate so far. He proved what he was capable of in the last debate, when he acted like a child arguing with Guiliani.
You must have missed the first 4 debates, or only pay attention to the ones where Huckabee’s opponents were attacked the most. Mitt PIMPed Chris Matthews as I remember in the first or second debate, and he has had some very strong performances. Everybody expected him to do better than McCain, and Giuliani seemed a little unconfident in those early debates.
looks like huckabee learned from romney how to successfully flip flop on immigration. all you have to do is demagogue it and say “no amnesty”. everyone who knows anything about this election knows huckabee and romney were both very much pro-mccain on immigration a year ago.
45 – I am home. In fact I have just replaced my Ronald Reagan poster with one of Mike Huckabee. Mike Huckabee is now the true leader of the race – both nationally and in every single early state. I’m so happy about what Mike Huckabee will do once elected POTUS. You know, I was so pleased to hear that Mike Huckabee supports rounding up all the HIV folks because to me, that is one of the most important things that we need to do, so it was good to see him come out in support of that idea. Not only that, but they carry diseases that I don’t want around at all.
I probably shouldn’t say this, but on yesterday’s conference call for Huckabee’s pastor’s network, it was let out that Huckabee’s immigration plan is to first build the fence, and then use all of the extra fence to quarantine all of the gays with HIV. He’s brilliant! He also told a funny story about one time when he saw a little line of ants carrying away his picnic and how he poured a little line of sweat tea in their path and the little ants were confused and turned back to where they came from. Now, of course, he didn’t compare those little ants to illegal immigration, but we all knew exactly what he was talking about. He is such a gifted politician. I mean for someone to say something and then leave enough wiggle room to park a double-wide is true talent.
Romney campaigned in 2001 on a promise to place a “moratorium” on Mass Life/Choice policy. An effectively pro-choice position where the laws were already decidedly pro-choice. His opponent wanted to expand abortion access and lower the age requiring parental consent.
Romney maintained his “moratorium” promise because he did not fight to repeal any of the pro-choice laws on the books. But he also was able to govern in a pro-Life way because all the legislation that came to his desk was seeking to expand abortion law (vetoed ESCell/cloning bill, vetoed expanded access to morning after pill, etc . . .). Therefore he kept his “moratorium” promise while ending up with a pro-life record. Now if the MA legislature had sent him a bill seeking to restrict abortions/choice then he really would have been in a pickle . . . but I think he knew it was a safe bet that such wouldn’t happen in MA
You’re a novice at this aren’t you? Typical of these Johnny-come-lately Huckabee fans.
Jeff,
No, Thompson’s plan, Hunter’s plan, Tancredo’s plan, all include building the fence. I’m not familiar with Romney’s plan, but I think it is part of it too.
I don’t know how Moses Mike (you know, ‘let my people free’) would have time to read confessions and the like while running the turnstile at the clemency and pardons booth. I mean he still had to hold down a full time job of being governor and all and still manage to let out at least one every five days.
Is anyone else seeing a pattern here? Mike Huckabee’s buddies in prison find God and he let’s them out.
” Green, a 22-year-old sergeant, kidnapped Helen Lynette Spencer on Little Rock Air Force Base, where he beat and kicked her as he tried to rape her in a secluded area. She broke loose and ran toward the barracks’ parking lot, where he caught up with her and beat her with a pair of nunchucks.
___ He then stuffed her into the trunk of his car and left her there while he cleaned up. Several hours later, he drove down Graham Road, past Loop Road and stopped near a bridge in Lonoke County. Green told investigators he put her body in the front seat and raped her because her body was still warm.
___ He dragged Spencer out of his vehicle and put her in front of the car and ran over her several times, going back and forth. He then collected himself long enough to dump her body in Twin Prairie Bayou.
___ This is what the Rev. Johnny Jackson, interim pastor at Bethel Baptist Church in Jacksonville, calls an accident, and apparently Huckabee believes him.”
how many fewer sanctuary cities existed in MA after Mitt left office? um. a big fat Zero. let’s not forget about the sanctuary mansion to boot. (mittbots are getting pretty agitated that a candidate who was virtually unknown a year ago can effectively redefine his record. the irony is that mitt has been doing that for the past year).
It was funny when McCain said it nearly a year ago, but by repeating it (after no one here laughed the first time) speaks of misdirection and desperation.
Mitt actually has a record to back up his current position on immigration.
LITTLE ROCK – Gov. Mike Huckabee said Wednesday that his religious background and belief in redemption played a key role in the high number of state prisoners he has pardoned or turned loose early.
74 – and that his own son tortured and killed a dog by hanging it from a tree, slitting its throat and stoning it to death. After all, how could Gov Huckabee not show mercy to others if he wanted mercy shown to his own son?
“I would not deny that my sense of the reality of redemption is a factor,” the former Baptist pastor said in a radio interview with KUAR in Little Rock. “And I don’t know that I can apologize for that because I would hate to think of the kind of human I would be if I thought people were beyond forgiveness and beyond reformation and beyond some sense of improvement.”
“Not only did he brutalize her physically, but even after he thought she was dead he tried to have sex with her,†Eaglehoff says. “And he even confessed to that in his written confession.â€
“I would not deny that my sense of the reality of redemption is a factor,†the former Baptist pastor said in a radio interview with KUAR in Little Rock. “And I don’t know that I can apologize for that because I would hate to think of the kind of human I would be if I thought people were beyond forgiveness and beyond reformation and beyond some sense of improvement.â€
“And I don’t know that I can apologize for that because I would hate to think of the kind of human I would be if I thought people were beyond forgiveness and beyond reformation and beyond some sense of improvement.” – Mike Huckabee
THIS IS GETING RICH! Go tell that to all the people killed by by the cons you let out!
Green beat her with some nun chucks and drove over her body twice. He says that wasn’t all that happened to her.
“Not only did he brutalize her physically, but even after he thought she was dead he tried to have sex with her,†Eaglehoff says. “And he even confessed to that in his written confession.†http://www.todaysthv.com/news/news.aspx?storyid=10520
Yeah, I’ve abandoned my belief that he’s electable. This stuff is just…jawdropping. In 1998 he had been Governor for 2 years. That whole statement, including his reason for getting into politics, is beyond belief in that context.
Mormons gave up any plausibly theocratic beliefs they might have had when they were being driven, at the barrel of a gun, out of places like Missouri. You learn the value of religious tolerance real fast in situations like that.
If you think about it no candaidte has really taken on Huck. I’m wondering if they’ve known this info and (probably much more) all along and therfore were not worried about him. they knew he would get vetted naturally without them looking like the bad guy. In the last debate he was rising in the poles but Romeny never really seemed worried about him much. Just a thought.
That said, “taking the nation back for Christ”, as a mission statement for a president, probably appeals to most of Huck’s supporters. So it’s not likely to hurt him terribly now. It’ll just sink him in the general. If he gets there, I’ll enjoy watching.
so i’m supposed to take mormons at their word if they tell me that their prophet who they believe received revelations directly from God, wrote their mormon bible, and founded their religion was wrong when he advocated a ‘theodemocracy’?
Three things:
-Joseph Smith was a hated man and because of that fact there was a wide body of literature with not entirely accurate info on the man. How else do you think people started believing Mormons had horns?
-Sullivan tries to say that Romney also wants a theodemocracy. Perhaps that should clue in as to his mental health.
-Regardless of what Smith said it has no import on this election because we already know where Romney stands. This is nothing more than a worthless hit piece.
94, so joseph smith DIDNT advocate a theodemocracy? that’s just a lie?
sullivan was using logic. if the founder or one’s religion advocates something, the followers usually, um follow.
we know where romney stands? i dont. just the other day a learned he was going to swear on on the book of mormon. i dont think he said that in any of his tv ads.
What are you talking about ROmney swearing on the Book of Mormon?
You are highly misinformed. He took is Gov oath on the Bible (as has EVERY LDS politician in history). And in “The Speech” he said:
When I place my hand on the Bible and take the oath of office, that oath becomes my highest promise to God. If I am fortunate to become your President, I will serve no one religion, no one group, no one cause, and no one interest. A President must serve only the common cause of the people of the United States.
Do you really believe yourself sometimes? I’m finding it hard to believe anything you write any of the time.
I haven’t the foggiest about whether or not Joseph Smith said that. And frankly, I don’t care either. Perhaps you missed Romney’s speech. One point that you failed to note is that what a Mormon does in the voting booth or in the governor’s seat is his own business. Smith ran as a private citizen not as the leader of his church. Or perhaps we should follow Sullivan’s logic and say every Mormon is a clone who votes the same way(like Harry Reid). And if you believe that then I’ve got some ocean front property in Montana….
If I wanted to swear on “The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy” instead of the Bible it wouldn’t make one bit of a difference in terms of my actual job performance. So who cares?
Use your head. We already completely discredited Sullivan. Why won’t you even entertain the idea that Smith DIDN’T actually say that. It certainly wouldn’t the first fuzzy “fact” on the man.
106. i took him at his word. it reminded me of the time i learned that ann romney’s family was banned from their wedding. i mean really?! what family man doesn’t ban one’s family from weddings?
wiki:
Theodemocracy is a political system theorized by Joseph Smith, Jr., founder of the Latter Day Saint movement. As the name implies, theodemocracy was meant to be a fusion of traditional republican democracy as practiced under the United States Constitution combined with theocratic elements. He described it as a system under which God and the people held the power to rule in righteousness.[1] Smith believed that this would be the form of government that would rule the world upon Christ’s Second Coming, which he believed was imminent.
source 1 being Joseph Smith’s very own ‘Times and Seasons’… If that’s wrong, go change it.
Drop it Sampo (#104) . . . you’re looking like an idiot more and more with each comment.
I’m a life-long and well-read Mormon and I’ve never heard the term “Theodemocracy”
Sullivan’s pulling an obscur quote from nearly 200 years ago and trying to make political hay of it now without any meaning, context, or relevancy.
It’s reassuring to me to see that the attacks on Mitt are getting this weak.
Speaking of lame attacks on Mitt Romney was the most vitriolic anti-Mormon attack by Lawrence O-Donnell on Today’s McLaughlin Group that I’ve seen (you know it’s way out there when the Huffington Post is saying this guy’s a loon for such anti-Mormon bigotry (and yes, that’s what he’s trying to propagate, and no, I’m not playing the “victim card” . . . it’s just totally irrelevant and lame).
You are a sad little person if you try to selectively quote wikipedia to argue your point. Either that or you have short attention span and didn’t read the rest of the article. From the article it is clear that theodemocracy is completely different than what Sullivan or you would have us believe.
Btw,
commendable for at least doing a search and checking the on the facts.
Sampo, are you suggesting the Mormons would be successful in doing such a thing. Like, we shouldn’t vote for Romney because maybe he’d do it and there would be no way to stop him. And all our children and children’s children would eventually be turned into evil Mormons?
i’m just curious as to why mormons place such an enormous faith in smith’s claims but then they turn around and think he’s off his rocker when he fought for this theodemocracy.
If A then B. Read the entire article and then talk some more. As I said, the wiki article gives a different idea of theodemocracy than what you or Sullivan would have us believe.
My faith is irrelevant to this or any other discussion on this site.
I dont know what Sullivan and I are “having us believe”. I’m just reading what Joseph Smith says:“There is not a nation or a dynasty now occupying the earth which acknowledges almighty God as their lawgiver,†Smith told the Neighbor newspaper in Nauvoo, Illinois. “I go emphatically, virtuously and humanely, for a theodemocracy, where God and the people hold the power to conduct the affairs of men in righteousness.â€
If you dont want to believe Smith said that, you go right ahead.
If you recall I never said that he did or didn’t. I said I didn’t know and I didn’t really care.
Now assuming that he said that can you please use the rest of the wikipedia article to interpret this quote and tell me exactly what you think this means?
Guess what the next sentence after that quote says….
“And where liberty, free trade, and sailor’s rights, and the protection of life and property shall be maintained inviolate, for the benefit of ALL”. (emphasis his)
Kind of puts the the other quote in context doesn’t it?
mcon, i’m glad to see you’re researching this for yourself. obvious it has become a burr under your saddle. but that’s really weak if you think the latter quote fixes everything.
You can be amusing. I’ll give you that. Unfortunately it isn’t very useful arguing against you when talking about Romney or his church. That is obvious from your hatred of Romney and 108 tonight.
Mcon, try answering this(a yes or no will do): Would Mitt Romney be forgiven if he said this:
There is not a nation or a dynasty now occupying the earth which acknowledges almighty God as their lawgiver. I go emphatically, virtuously and humanely, for a theodemocracy, where God and the people hold the power to conduct the affairs of men in righteousness.
If his next two sentences were this:
And where liberty, free trade, and sailor’s rights, and the protection of life and property shall be maintained inviolate, for the benefit of ALL. With the highest sentiments of regard for all men, I am an advocate of unadulterated freedom.
How do get from these quotes to sullivan’s conclusion that “under the guise of defending freedom of conscience in the public sphere, Romney is actually attempting to limit it.” Since his only source for making the conclusion was that one cherrypicked quote I’m really curious as to how you get from point A to B.
Oh, what’s that? You can’t without a whole lot of bias and creativity?
Hmmm…Like I said the smear tactics crumble under the weight of logic.
He probably would not be well received if he said that. Then again I think both you and I can agree that 2007 isn’t 1844. This of course brings me to the simple point that this is utterly meaningless as Mitt has said nothing of the sort.
actually let us continue along the same vein and have you tell me what church you belong to. Then we can talk about what your church leaders of the last century said. (you could think of me as a walking dictionary on a number of faiths)
What? Fair isn’t fair? I suppose it isn’t hypocritical at all to apply a different standard for Romney! Hmm let’s see. Is McCain a Baptist now or a methodist? Where to begin?
What you seem to be assuming is that Mormons believe that every word ever uttered by Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, etc . . . right down to Gordon B. Hinckley . . . is gospel truth.
That is not the case. We believe these men are prophets of God and speak for God when acting in that role. But we also realize (and they realize and admit) that the are not in the “speaking for God” role 100% of the time (it’s actually just a small sliver of their time that is spent in such a capacity IMO)
Notice how Joseph Smith said “I go emphatically . . .” with the emphasis on I/him (i.e. his own political opinion). No where are these words ever suggested in Mormon texts as prophecy or revelation (though hundreds of thousands of Smith’s words are so cannonized)
Remember, logic only works when assumptions are correct. Yours are not in this instance.
Your are too kind to sampo and he probably isn’t accepting anything you just wrote. No matter as objective observers can see he is getting pOwned in this debate.
Sampo- Although a prophet, not everything Smith said or did was considered authoritative or binding. Smith made this very clear in his teachings, that there were times when he was the Lord’s mouthpiece, and there were times he was just a man with an opinion. If Smith was acting in his role as prophet, he would often preface his statement with “Thus saith the Lord…” or something along those lines. As prophet and leader of the Mormon community, Smith’s thoughts and views on the world were respected by his followers. However, it is worth noting that Smith’s history is plagued with confrontations with individuals who disagreed with him on secular issues. Politics and governance was often a source of irratation. Smith’s views on theocracy and government evolved quite a bit during his lifetime. Theodemocracy represents just one stage of Smith’s political progression. It is unlikely that contemporary Mormons are familiar with the political opinions of Smith, since they were just opinions. We can all benefit from a modern perspective and conclusively say that Theodemocracy was a bad idea. I’m confident that most Mormons would agree.
so is Joseph Smith’s take the book of abraham authoritative even though it has more holes than swiss cheese? when he said american indians were actually jews even though DNA testing disproves him was that authoritative?
Wow you are truly an idiot. Perhaps you have never heard of GOTV. I would be perfectly willing to man a call center(something I am familiar with) or do something else to help my candidate.
McCain is a Protestant. Baptists and Episcopalians agree on fundamental things: like there was never a pre-existence, and that they don’t become Gods when they die, and they agree that Satan and Jesus were not brothers.
Jay Garrity was cleared of all charges and accusations. The calls made that claimed to be from Garrity were frauds . . . probably from McCain people IMO.
nice dodge there sampo. Religious doctrine has nothing to do with this conversation and you bringing them up in 144 and 149 only highlights your own bigotry.
No sane Mormon thinks/claims that all American Indians are decendants of the House of Israel (not of Jews as you say . . . which were of the house of Judah). Most of the people that LDS claim came here killed eachother off.
We don’t disagree with the Bering Straight landbridge theory as being a large if not the dominant source of American Indians today.
PS . . . and my Honors Thesis was about tracking migratory patterns of American Indians based on mitochodrial DNA sequence variation . . . so I’m glad that I could provide you a well-informed response to your shaky claim.
Here’s a more recent link for you to chew on about this subject.
sampo (#144) – Are you refering to “The Book of Abraham” in the Mormon scriptures or to the Egyption papyrus from which Joseph Smith purported to have obtained the manuscript?
No, Smith’s views on the origins of the Native Americans is not considered authoritative. Smith opined that the events from the Book of Mormon took place on the American continent. As such, he concluded that the remenents of the Book of Mormon peoples were the Native Americans. Modern scholars have proposed a limited geography theory to address origins of the Book of Mormon in light of the DNA testing you mention, plus new archeological evidence.
“The calls made that claimed to be from Garrity were frauds.” Proof?
“probably from McCain people IMO.” i know you cant back that up. oh, and it’s not funny either.
The Book of Abraham is a pretty amazing piece of literature, even if you think Smith was full of it. It’s a very short read and I highly recommend it to you.
As for it’s origins, there are a number of criticisms. And a number of responses. My opinion is that Smith did not perform a literal translation, but rather used the the papyri as a source of inspiration. If you look at Smith’s history as a prophet, you’ll notice that in the beginning he was very reliant on tangible tools to assist him (i.e. peer stones, glass, and papyri). As Smith became more comfortable in his role as a prophet, he did not use tools to assist him in his revelatory actions anymore.
Why does everyone allow Sampo to hijack the message thread with his anti-religion bigotry? He’s a marginalized idiot which is more clear as he continues to comment.
“It seems to be true at least anecdotally that if a minister is involved, (Huckabee) seems likely to grant clemency,” prosecutor Robert Herzfeld said in 2004 after successfully battling the then-governor over the release of a killer.
Some inmates who benefited from some sort of personal connection:
_James Maxwell, who killed a pastor of the Church of God in Arkansas. Maxwell worked at the Governor’s Mansion when Huckabee announced his intent to reduce his prison sentence.
_Samuel W. Taylor, convicted on a drug charge. A prosecutor said the man had told him Taylor’s sister had gone to school with Huckabee. Huckabee said the sister didn’t influence the decision. Taylor subsequently was arrested on another drug charge.
_Donald W. Clark, convicted of theft. Huckabee’s pastor recommended leniency for Clark, whose stepmother worked on Huckabee’s gubernatorial staff.
_Robert A. Arnold Jr., who was convicted of killing his father-in-law. Arnold’s father, a former mayor of Hope, Huckabee’s hometown, said he was a casual friend of the governor.
_A pastor who promoted Huckabee among blacks urged the governor to grant clemency to John Henry Claiborne, who was sentenced to 100 years for a 1994 armed robbery, according to a 2004 report in the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette. Huckabee made Claiborne eligible for parole after receiving a letter from the Rev. Charles Williams, who told the newspaper he had helped win “many, many” clemencies from Huckabee.
_Denver Witham, convicted of beating a man to death with a lead pipe at bar, had his sentence commuted by Huckabee. The action drew the ire of prosecutors who speculated that Huckabee’s act of clemency was related to Witham, who was lead singer in a prison band, being a fellow musician.
This may have been answered earlier, but I can’t stomach reading all your crap so early in the morning. Ann Romney’s parents weren’t banned from her wedding. They were (like any other non-Temple Recommend Holder) not allowed to enter the Temple for the sealing of Ann and Mitt.
Why am I even responding? The facts won’t matter, I’m sure.
“In a 1994 letter to the Log Cabin Republicans, who advocate gay rights, Romney said he was in favor of “gays and lesbians being able to serve openly and honestly” in the military. He now says it would be a mistake to interfere with the “don’t ask, don’t tell policy.”
While campaigning for the governorship of Massachusetts in 2002, he said he would not “chip away” at the state’s tough gun laws. He signed up for “lifelong membership” of the National Rifle Association in 2006, while contemplating a run for the Republican nomination.
In 2005, appeared to favor immigration reform, along the lines proposed by Sen. John McCain. He now denounces it as an “amnesty plan.”
The recent discovery by the Boston Globe that illegal immigrants continued to mow his lawn a year after the matter was first brought to his attention opens him up to the the charge of hypocrisy.
Romney’s positions on abortion have shifted more frequently than he cares to admit, hardening during the primaries as he went after Republican votes and moving to the center during the general election. To claim that his positions are “consistent with my principles and my views” is a tautology that conceals the deeper truth that his views and principles have a habit of changing with the political season.
It is also a stretch for Romney to claim that he lowered taxes while Governor of Massachusetts.”
Let’s take a look at the “facts”, Michael (of course this isn’t what I was talking about, but what the heck).
In 1994 Gov. Romney was of the opinion that “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” wouldn’t work. He said that as well. Subsequently, when the policy proved to be successful, he felt that it would be a mistake to interfere with a policy that worked. Gosh, how foolish. To follow a policy of “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” is completely irrational.
Immigration. You say he “appeared to favor…”. Well, since politicians are asked to opine about many things at many stages of development, I don’t find it unusual in the least that someone (politician or regular citizen) would “appear to favor…” something in its early stages and be against it when further details became available.
You really aren’t still on the Lawn Care company that hired illegal immigrants, are you? How many times does that whole line of (lack of) reasoning have to be discredited?
Abortion? “I was wrong.”. Next.
So, since we’re talking about facts, how are things on the prisoner release front this morning, Michael?
I have no idea if this is going to end his candidacy, but it should. If he was otherwise a perfect conservative, I’d vote against him simply because of his ATTROCIOUS record on clemency. More then twice as many clemencies as the three previous Governors combined, ALL of whom were Democrats? This has to be a practical joke Huckabee’s supporters are playing on us.
I mean honestly, Hillary would run so far to the right of Huckabee on crime and terrorism, Mike Huckabee would come out of the election looking like Neville Chamberlain.
Huck pretending to be an immigration hawk is hilarious. seriously. this is the guy who met with fox in arkansas and rented otu a building for $1 a month for a mexican consulate that he knew was handing out fake ids.
this guy is going to win because he is a slick smooth talking preacher. he just glosses over everything giving a false sense if who is is and hte ignorant masses are buying it.
why has the media refused to hold his feet to the fire.
I don’t know about everyone else but I want the oval office to be used to better the American people and to Protect this nation not used for a pulpit to promote someones own agenda. I want a president not a political preacher or a hand puppet that has somone else pulling the strings. I think Huck and Mitt both would best serve the public by going back to their congregations. I think that they have been hanging out and comparing notes, because old Huck pulled a Mitt shuffle on the cuban embargo flub. That just goes to show how inexperienced that he is when it comes to foreign policies.
December 9th, 2007 at 10:44 pm
Go Huck.
December 9th, 2007 at 10:45 pm
I was really leaning towards Huckabee until I saw these two ads. I know in the past he let me know that he was a Christian leader, but now I’m not so sure as neither of these ads made clear where he stands with God. Very disappointing.
December 9th, 2007 at 10:50 pm
#2, ??What??
December 9th, 2007 at 10:53 pm
No surprises that the 1st ad focuses on “family” (code: social issues)
Interesting that the 2nd ad focuses on illegal immigration. I wouldn’t have thought it was an area where Mike was strong. Is he doing this to pre-empt future negative ads?
December 9th, 2007 at 10:54 pm
What? Huck believes in God? I had never heard that before.
December 9th, 2007 at 10:56 pm
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110010967>glib naiveté of Huckabee
December 9th, 2007 at 10:56 pm
Those are both excellent ads.
Jeff, you make the baby Jesus cry.
December 9th, 2007 at 10:56 pm
Jeff, are you saying that because he doesn’t mention God in these ads you no longer support him?
I expect that Huckabee will take on the consultants and move mainstream to try and capture the center. Not that it helped John Edwards in 2004. So I expect that now he’s proven his christian-ness, he’ll try and prove theirs more to his candidacy than social conservatism…
December 9th, 2007 at 10:57 pm
Why doesnt he run an ad talking about how his campaign funds, like feeding the 5000 in the bible, go a long way and that his lead was brought to him by God. Then something like “Im Mike Huckabee and I approved this message, and so does God. He told me so.”
December 9th, 2007 at 11:00 pm
3 – I’m confused – these ads make me think that Huckabee has fallen out of favor with his Christian leadership since he’s not making that distinction clear in these ads.
Aside from that misstep, a fact check is in order. On the second ad, Huckabee should have included his rationale for his stance on illegal immigration – and that being that he drinks a different ‘Jesus-juice’ than the ‘enforce the borders’ crowd. I would have found the inclusion of that remark more enlightening and helpful for his campaign. I mean if for whatever reason he can’t let me know that he’s still a Christian leader, at least he can include the fact that he’s drinking the right Jesus-juice, right?
Also, I only watched the ads once, so I might have missed the part where he’s championing for scholarship opportunities for illegal immigrants. This is of great appeal to me as it demonstrates that Mike Huckabee knows how best to spend my tax dollars. After all, once I pay tax, it is up to the executive to redistribute that money to fund college expenses for illegal immigrants who don’t use drugs and who got a ‘C’ average while attending at least their senior year in school.
As for the first ad, it is simple to tout economic growth while you are increasing the tax burden on your citizens. Does anyone imagine that there is a direct correlation between government job growth and government spending due to tax increases? Hmm…
So, overall, I’d rate these as feel-good ads. Not the most accurate that team Huckabee has produced by any stretch.
December 9th, 2007 at 11:00 pm
Huckabee has to draw the narrative away from comments like #9. If the public lock in the perception that the GOP are nominating a preaching joking pastor who can’t be taken seriously then he is dead meat against whoever the Dems nominate. Very hard to overcome those perceptions…
December 9th, 2007 at 11:01 pm
8 – darn straight. I will only vote for the ’stand up for God’ guy. I thought I had found that person in pastor governor huckabee, but with these ads, i’m left scratching my head…
December 9th, 2007 at 11:03 pm
For people who say that Huck doesn’t do any attacking . . . the fact that he constantly says he’s an “Authentic Conservative” is a none-too-veiled swipe at Romney’s character.
Romney has taken most of the candidates to task on their records or policies . . . but Huckabee’s attack at Romney here is a deeply personal one and is below-the-belt IMO. He’s claiming that Romney’s “UN-Authentic” and that is the politics of negative attacking as bad as I’ve seen.
Let me tell you all that Romney is completely authentic. I’ve met with him personally and seen him on the campaign trail at multiple events.
There is nothing “un-authentic” about him. He’s a man who has kept his campaign promises and kept the promises in his personal life. You DO know what you’re getting in Governor Mitt Romney. He has more character than most of the other candidates could ever hope to have.
December 9th, 2007 at 11:05 pm
I think his efforts in NH are in vain. I get that he has risen nationally because of his support among evangelicals, but NH isnt exactly evangelical country.
I still think Romney has about a 45% chance to win IA, and that he has a 75% chance to win NH. Rudy gets 4th in IA, 3rd in NH, and becomes irrelevant. Thompson gets 3rd in IA, 6th in NH, and drops out.
1. Mitt or Huck win IA, order not known yet
2. Mitt wins NH (ahead today by about 13% in RCP and early voting starts tomorrow)
3. Mitt wins Wyoming
4. Mitt wins MI, or comes in a very close 2nd to Huck
5. NV and SC, Mitt wins one (probably NV), Huck wins the other. The other gets 2nd place where he loses.
That said, how is Rudy even a player in January. He doesnt have a national lead any longer, and isnt ahead in any early states except Florida (which isnt even that early really).
December 9th, 2007 at 11:10 pm
HA! Just watched that 2nd ad.
Huckabee’s the new Immigration Hawk!!
ROTFL . . . I’m in stitches!!!!
Someone’s got to make a juxtaposed YouTube of that commercial with his previous (and some current) stances laid out to contradict his current words.
And Romney’s not Authentic?
Point to ONE thing in Huckabee’s RECORD that proves that he’s tough on immigration.
Similarly, point out one thing in Huckabee’s record that proves that he had a committment to tax reform (a la the Fair Tax) before he needed a free field team in the run up to the Ames Straw Poll.
This guy’s a total sham. I hope Americans take note sooner than later. That he hasn’t had time to get a thorough vetting is not a good reason to chose him as the GOP nominee. The Dems will have plenty of time to do their oppo research and Huckabee will be toast.
I just saw this link to Huckabee’s troubling record of releasing criminals that went on to commit more crime or flee authorities (yes, it looks like it’s a LOT more than Wayne Dumond)
http://www.americablog.com/2007/12/huckabee-let-lots-more-criminals-off.html
We CANNOT have a man for our nominee that has this much baggage on the shelf.
December 9th, 2007 at 11:10 pm
11 – I agree, however, I learned a valuable lesson as a young child while I watched my sweet mother labor over the hot stove in the kitchen. She would always tell me that it is best to simmer the vegetables before the guests arrive. It took a long time and many a crunchy vegetable before I became convinced that she was right. It’s the same situation here, are we going to server our guests crunchy vegetables, or make certain that we have that pot simmering just long enough so that the carrots are tender.
December 9th, 2007 at 11:10 pm
#13, Thats absurd, can anyone say something positive about themselves without it ridiculing Romney?
December 9th, 2007 at 11:12 pm
The victim mentality is getting old. You sound like Al Sharpton.
December 9th, 2007 at 11:13 pm
Rudy needs Huck to win Iowa, and then he needs to win NH as Mitt collapses after a poor Iowa result.
If Mitt wins the first two then its over, he’ll take the lot as he’s in a strong position in the other early voting states too. If Huck wins Iowa & then South Carolina (unlikely to rocket to NH 1st) he’ll be very hard to block.
December 9th, 2007 at 11:19 pm
Jeff, the voters have to a certain extent tired of Mitt, MaC, Rudy & Thommo. So Huck’s rise is sort of natural. The question is, will people tire of him in tire for Ron Paul (surely not Duncan Hunter?) to be the “not scrutinised enough so voted for” candidate?
December 9th, 2007 at 11:19 pm
I could post a hundred links to ads that would cast Romney in a bad light. In fact most of them that I have seen criticize Huck and Romney. Most of that hype is created by far-left loons who would disparage anyone of faith including Romney.
December 9th, 2007 at 11:19 pm
15 – I don’t understand why the anti-Huck crowd is getting their feathers ruffled over Huckabee’s ‘1 for 5′ plan… you know, release 1 convicted felon every 5 days while in office…
Some readers on this site might not be aware that Gov Huckabee is an accomplished author. In fact, I read one of his books one time which contained this telling bit of poetry:
Little Johnny
Little Johnny was naughty
And was sitting in jail
He dreamed to go free
But instead, picked at his nails
Johnny’s fortunes changed
With Governor Huckabee
For Johnny was ‘Saved’
and Huck set him free
Now Johnny never forgot
His time in the can
But nothing could stop
His crime spree again…..
December 9th, 2007 at 11:20 pm
I went to RCP and Im convinced now more than ever that Hucks shoestring funds are a waste in NH. In the last 6 months, Romney lowest in the polls are 24% (twice) and todays poll at 25%. About 75% of the polls in the past few months show Romneys numbers higher than Rudy and McCain combined. He was at 37% in several polls these past few months. Hucks bounce has seemed to work in most places in the country lately, but I dont think he will be a player in NH at all, regardless of what might happen in IA. I think that he might be seen as Pat Robertson (former Christian IA winner too) come mid January. Romney should hold NH, and be competitive beyond that. I still think Rudy becomes irrelevant as January goes on.
December 9th, 2007 at 11:20 pm
#20 is right, because this election cycle has been so long.
December 9th, 2007 at 11:21 pm
If Huck isn’t a true conservative (just as Thompson wasn’t, and Mitt isn’t authentic enough) maybe its not too late for Jim Gilmore to come back into the race. Looks like he’d have more of a chance in the POTUS race than against Warner in Virginia…
December 9th, 2007 at 11:22 pm
why is he talking about the economy and immigration, i want to hear more about his faith. i dont care about policies.
December 9th, 2007 at 11:22 pm
Yes, NH will be tough for Huck.
December 9th, 2007 at 11:22 pm
25 – you’re joking, right?
December 9th, 2007 at 11:26 pm
26 – my pastor told me today to get on board with Huckabee because ‘good things happen when we’re on God’s side’… so I was hoping for exactly what you cited – I too want to have him declare his faith with every ad… it makes me feel good to know that we are united in faith and knowing that all of these attacks being thrown at Huckabee only serve to strengthen him and make him a stronger candidate. All this talk about immigration and the economy is giving me a headache – I just need Huckabee to tell me a witty story and I’ll be able to calm down.
December 9th, 2007 at 11:26 pm
Jeff (#28) I’m not joking when I say Gilmore has more of a chance in the POTUS race, but it doesn’t exactly mean much given his terrible situation in Virginia against an extremely popular former Governor.
At some point the conservative base will realise that Mike isn’t a true conservative either (fiscally & on immigration). At that point they will either try and find yet another candidate (Paul or Hunter) or look fo rhte best from whats available rather than dreaming. At that point it becomes a shoot out between Mitt & Rudy. Methinks. Unless Mike’s momentum lasts long enough to keep him in the top two in Iowa…
December 9th, 2007 at 11:32 pm
We waste our time on Hucks weakness on immigration, taxes, and releasing rapists, and we dont give enough attention to his comments today to close Gitmo and never using waterboarding. If we suggest water boarding is torture, is tazering someone also torture.
December 9th, 2007 at 11:32 pm
#13, Jeff Fuller:
“He’s a man who has kept his campaign promises…you DO know what you’re getting in Governor Mitt Romney.”
OK. Let’s dissect that one. Mitt campaigned for governor as a “pro-choice” candidate. Once in office, he became “pro-life.” And, he governed that way. Let’s ignore the “why” or the sincerity of said converstion. Bottom line, campaign promise: broken. After all, there’s “not a paper’s worth of difference between [Romney] and Ted Kennedy on abortion.”
December 9th, 2007 at 11:34 pm
Jeff, #29, you should be on Saturday Night Live. That is top notch satire. At least, I assume you are being funny intentionally.
December 9th, 2007 at 11:34 pm
Jeff, You are Hilarious.
Huckabee will wither in the spotlight. I can’t wait to see Romney this Wednesday mop the floor with the other candidates in the Iowa debate (it is this Wed right?).
I also loved seeing Huck on FNS. Chris Wallace basically said “WADR, Gov., but I don’t think that’s true.”
Americans are not dumb. They are going to see Mike cop-out of his past record. I lived near Arkansas for a year, and thought they were pretty bright as well. I guess they just don’t care about their politicians telling the truth, or they have short attention spans.
December 9th, 2007 at 11:36 pm
#29 – No way, yours too. By the grace of God. This truly is a miracle. Jesus feeding the multitude here in the twenty-first century via Mike Huckabee. I mean…just think about it for a second. My pastor tells me to vote for the only true Christian on the very same day that yours tells you the same thing…I mean it’s just putting 2 and 2 together. It’s a miracle. Just like a bumblebee doesn’t know it’s not supposed to fly…Pastor Huckabee didn’t know he’d be able to get anywhere in this election, and look what the man has done. If he can lead the country in the same manner by not paying attention to his surroundings or what’s happened in the past, or what the experts say, and just listening to his heart, and what Jesus would do, it’s going to be a very different place.
December 9th, 2007 at 11:37 pm
Husky, you may have just uttered the most ridiculous thing ever: “If we suggest waterboarding is torture, is tazering someone also torture?”
Ok, first, they have nothing to do with one another. Tazering is done to subdue a criminal without causing lasting harm (aka, better than shooting them). Waterboarding is done to a currently defenseless person without provocation. Regardless of whether waterboarding is right or wrong, it has no resemblance to tazering. You, sir, are being a Dumbocrat in public. I ask you to refrain.
December 9th, 2007 at 11:38 pm
I’ll take the opinion of a Retinal-vitreous surgeon (Jeff F. is one wicked smart guy) any day over that of a pastor who just keeps saying things like “I probably wouldn’t have said it that way NOW,” or “That’s just Arkansas politics as usual.”
December 9th, 2007 at 11:38 pm
32 – you make an amazingly articulate argument as to why we cannot trust or support Huckabee. I’ll leave it to your brilliant mind to see if you can figure out the contradictions in your statement.
December 9th, 2007 at 11:39 pm
#34, If Mitt mopped the floor with Huck, it would be the first time.
December 9th, 2007 at 11:43 pm
#38, Jeff, I was serious about how funny you are. But, I’m missing how my statement in #32 has anything to do with Huckabee. I don’t support him or Romney. I’m going to need YOUR brilliant mind to point out the contradictions in my statement.
December 9th, 2007 at 11:44 pm
Michael Lawrence must be a McCain guy.
December 9th, 2007 at 11:46 pm
That’s true. He was being nice to him since his campaign was struggling for the first 10 months. You won’t see Mitt take shots at Tancredo because tancredo has nil possibilities of winning Iowa. Mitt is going to show some tough love in the next few weeks. Everybody is going to know about Huck’s Flip-Flopping on AIDS, immigration, Taxes, and Crime enforcement.
December 9th, 2007 at 11:47 pm
35 – It is truly a miracle as you say. I thought that our youth minister went over the line a little bit when he posted a sign on the lemonade table that said ‘water turned into lemonade’ compliments of Pastor Gov. Mike Huckabee, but we all got a good chuckle and enjoyed the pot luck. No doubt that Huckabee isn’t supposed to be doing what he’s doing – it is not a human force to be sure that is propelling him onward. I’ve been praying daily to strengthen Mike and help him to stand up to Mr. Nasty and the rest of the non-believers on the stage with him tonight. I mean he is one of us and that give me so much comfort. He tells the funniest stories – I could listen to Mike for hours on end and not notice how numb my butt is from the pew – the guy is a real gift from above – a gift that will help deliver the nation back to Christ. I was so inspired when I read through his remarks from a few years ago when he talked about bringing the nation back to Christ – my goodness, the guy is amazing. Anyway, I should probably get going – I need to help my pastor finish stamping the Mike Huckabee mailers. I’m also pulling together the list of our little flock here to send up to Mike’s campaign – it’s all in the family, so it’s OK, right? God bless!
December 9th, 2007 at 11:50 pm
#42, Mitt has dome Mediocre at best in any debate so far. He proved what he was capable of in the last debate, when he acted like a child arguing with Guiliani.
December 9th, 2007 at 11:50 pm
Jeff, Go home.
December 9th, 2007 at 11:51 pm
Those were two of the most professional ads Huck has done yet. I thought they were very good.
December 9th, 2007 at 11:52 pm
#41, Michael, that’s quite an observation. How did you come to that conclusion?
December 9th, 2007 at 11:52 pm
Jeff, please – stay.
December 9th, 2007 at 11:54 pm
You must have missed the first 4 debates, or only pay attention to the ones where Huckabee’s opponents were attacked the most. Mitt PIMPed Chris Matthews as I remember in the first or second debate, and he has had some very strong performances. Everybody expected him to do better than McCain, and Giuliani seemed a little unconfident in those early debates.
December 9th, 2007 at 11:59 pm
looks like huckabee learned from romney how to successfully flip flop on immigration. all you have to do is demagogue it and say “no amnesty”. everyone who knows anything about this election knows huckabee and romney were both very much pro-mccain on immigration a year ago.
December 10th, 2007 at 12:10 am
45 – I am home. In fact I have just replaced my Ronald Reagan poster with one of Mike Huckabee. Mike Huckabee is now the true leader of the race – both nationally and in every single early state. I’m so happy about what Mike Huckabee will do once elected POTUS. You know, I was so pleased to hear that Mike Huckabee supports rounding up all the HIV folks because to me, that is one of the most important things that we need to do, so it was good to see him come out in support of that idea. Not only that, but they carry diseases that I don’t want around at all.
I probably shouldn’t say this, but on yesterday’s conference call for Huckabee’s pastor’s network, it was let out that Huckabee’s immigration plan is to first build the fence, and then use all of the extra fence to quarantine all of the gays with HIV. He’s brilliant! He also told a funny story about one time when he saw a little line of ants carrying away his picnic and how he poured a little line of sweat tea in their path and the little ants were confused and turned back to where they came from. Now, of course, he didn’t compare those little ants to illegal immigration, but we all knew exactly what he was talking about. He is such a gifted politician. I mean for someone to say something and then leave enough wiggle room to park a double-wide is true talent.
Go Huck!!!
December 10th, 2007 at 12:14 am
there’s even more serious cases than DuMond that Huckabee is going to have to respond too.
Google: Glen Green + Arkansas
December 10th, 2007 at 12:15 am
Yea…Romney probably chased those Guatamalans off his lawn with his varmit gun…since he has always been a lifelong hunter.
December 10th, 2007 at 12:15 am
Michael Lawrence (#32),
Romney campaigned in 2001 on a promise to place a “moratorium” on Mass Life/Choice policy. An effectively pro-choice position where the laws were already decidedly pro-choice. His opponent wanted to expand abortion access and lower the age requiring parental consent.
Romney maintained his “moratorium” promise because he did not fight to repeal any of the pro-choice laws on the books. But he also was able to govern in a pro-Life way because all the legislation that came to his desk was seeking to expand abortion law (vetoed ESCell/cloning bill, vetoed expanded access to morning after pill, etc . . .). Therefore he kept his “moratorium” promise while ending up with a pro-life record. Now if the MA legislature had sent him a bill seeking to restrict abortions/choice then he really would have been in a pickle . . . but I think he knew it was a safe bet that such wouldn’t happen in MA
You’re a novice at this aren’t you? Typical of these Johnny-come-lately Huckabee fans.
December 10th, 2007 at 12:16 am
Jeff,
No, Thompson’s plan, Hunter’s plan, Tancredo’s plan, all include building the fence. I’m not familiar with Romney’s plan, but I think it is part of it too.
December 10th, 2007 at 12:17 am
Never mind, should’ve read your whole post to notice it was i jest.
December 10th, 2007 at 12:17 am
Sampo,
At least Mitt has a RECORD of being tough on immigration . . . Huckabee’s flip here is out of nowhere and it’s political pandering at it’s worst.
Shameless.
December 10th, 2007 at 12:18 am
http://www.todaysthv.com/news/news.aspx?storyid=10520
December 10th, 2007 at 12:19 am
I don’t know how Moses Mike (you know, ‘let my people free’) would have time to read confessions and the like while running the turnstile at the clemency and pardons booth. I mean he still had to hold down a full time job of being governor and all and still manage to let out at least one every five days.
Go Huck!!!
December 10th, 2007 at 12:19 am
Michael Lawrence,
Sorry, I assumed you were for Huckabee . . . who is your candidate?
December 10th, 2007 at 12:22 am
http://www.arkansasleader.com/frontstories/st_07_21_04/huckabee5.html
December 10th, 2007 at 12:23 am
Jeff,
You have serious issues.
December 10th, 2007 at 12:24 am
#57, Yea…Romney probably chased those Guatamalans off his lawn with his varmit gun…since he has always been a lifelong hunter.
December 10th, 2007 at 12:24 am
Is anyone else seeing a pattern here? Mike Huckabee’s buddies in prison find God and he let’s them out.
” Green, a 22-year-old sergeant, kidnapped Helen Lynette Spencer on Little Rock Air Force Base, where he beat and kicked her as he tried to rape her in a secluded area. She broke loose and ran toward the barracks’ parking lot, where he caught up with her and beat her with a pair of nunchucks.
___ He then stuffed her into the trunk of his car and left her there while he cleaned up. Several hours later, he drove down Graham Road, past Loop Road and stopped near a bridge in Lonoke County. Green told investigators he put her body in the front seat and raped her because her body was still warm.
___ He dragged Spencer out of his vehicle and put her in front of the car and ran over her several times, going back and forth. He then collected himself long enough to dump her body in Twin Prairie Bayou.
___ This is what the Rev. Johnny Jackson, interim pastor at Bethel Baptist Church in Jacksonville, calls an accident, and apparently Huckabee believes him.”
December 10th, 2007 at 12:24 am
http://www.arbop.org/html/layout/clemency112106.pdf
December 10th, 2007 at 12:24 am
Tommy,
You can’t make this stuff up…
December 10th, 2007 at 12:24 am
Thanks for the props Joseph D Walch (#37) . . . though I wish I were as smart as you make it sound.
December 10th, 2007 at 12:25 am
62 – I disagree. It is our friend and loving pastor governor mike huckabee with issues
December 10th, 2007 at 12:26 am
how many fewer sanctuary cities existed in MA after Mitt left office? um. a big fat Zero. let’s not forget about the sanctuary mansion to boot. (mittbots are getting pretty agitated that a candidate who was virtually unknown a year ago can effectively redefine his record. the irony is that mitt has been doing that for the past year).
December 10th, 2007 at 12:27 am
Matthew,
No you can’t. There’s a lot more. This is the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever researched.
December 10th, 2007 at 12:28 am
Michael 53 and 63,
It was funny when McCain said it nearly a year ago, but by repeating it (after no one here laughed the first time) speaks of misdirection and desperation.
Mitt actually has a record to back up his current position on immigration.
What’s Huck got?
December 10th, 2007 at 12:30 am
71 – Huck’s got a trail of bodies…. after all, it is Arkansas politics, right?
December 10th, 2007 at 12:30 am
can i get any non-mccain supporter to agree this is important?
http://www.redstate.com/stories/elections/2008/head_to_head_poll_analysis_of_the_presidential_race
December 10th, 2007 at 12:31 am
http://www.arkansasnews.com/archive/2004/07/22/News/261108.html
December 10th, 2007 at 12:33 am
Tommy – are all these just coming out now?
December 10th, 2007 at 12:33 am
74 – and that his own son tortured and killed a dog by hanging it from a tree, slitting its throat and stoning it to death. After all, how could Gov Huckabee not show mercy to others if he wanted mercy shown to his own son?
December 10th, 2007 at 12:34 am
http://www.arkansasnews.com/archive/2004/07/22/News/261108.html
http://www.todaysthv.com/news/news.aspx?storyid=10520
December 10th, 2007 at 12:36 am
steve,
They haven’t been picked up yet.
December 10th, 2007 at 12:37 am
“I would not deny that my sense of the reality of redemption is a factor,†the former Baptist pastor said in a radio interview with KUAR in Little Rock. “And I don’t know that I can apologize for that because I would hate to think of the kind of human I would be if I thought people were beyond forgiveness and beyond reformation and beyond some sense of improvement.â€
http://www.arkansasnews.com/archive/2004/07/22/News/261108.html
December 10th, 2007 at 12:37 am
“And I don’t know that I can apologize for that because I would hate to think of the kind of human I would be if I thought people were beyond forgiveness and beyond reformation and beyond some sense of improvement.” – Mike Huckabee
THIS IS GETING RICH! Go tell that to all the people killed by by the cons you let out!
December 10th, 2007 at 12:38 am
Green beat her with some nun chucks and drove over her body twice. He says that wasn’t all that happened to her.
“Not only did he brutalize her physically, but even after he thought she was dead he tried to have sex with her,†Eaglehoff says. “And he even confessed to that in his written confession.â€
http://www.todaysthv.com/news/news.aspx?storyid=10520
December 10th, 2007 at 12:38 am
I suppose god told him to let wayne dummond out to. this is exactly why you seperate church from state.
December 10th, 2007 at 12:41 am
That’s just the tip of the iceberg.
It really is unbelievable.
December 10th, 2007 at 12:42 am
“Green beat her with some nun chucks and drove over her body twice. He says that wasn’t all that happened to her.”
Lol, when I first read that I thought it said some nun chicks which… shifted my perspective a bit.
December 10th, 2007 at 12:45 am
Nothing sticks to this guy – will this finally do it?
December 10th, 2007 at 12:51 am
“I hope we answer the alarm clock and take this nation back for Christ.”
- Huckabee in 1998
http://www.newsweek.com/id/74472/output/print
This guy is really starting to scare me. We’re going to turn into a religious state.
December 10th, 2007 at 12:57 am
mitt supporters.
can you set me straight. i know andrew sullivan is perhaps even more anti-mitt than me so i realize i should consider the source. but dude.
but joseph smith wanted a theodemocracy? how could someone follow the mormon teachings of joseph smith and refuse to be a ‘theodemocratic’ president?
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/12/the-theodemocra.html
December 10th, 2007 at 12:59 am
Yeah, I’ve abandoned my belief that he’s electable. This stuff is just…jawdropping. In 1998 he had been Governor for 2 years. That whole statement, including his reason for getting into politics, is beyond belief in that context.
December 10th, 2007 at 1:01 am
sampo,
Mormons gave up any plausibly theocratic beliefs they might have had when they were being driven, at the barrel of a gun, out of places like Missouri. You learn the value of religious tolerance real fast in situations like that.
December 10th, 2007 at 1:01 am
You are right sampo. Sullivan is even more ludicrous than you.
December 10th, 2007 at 1:01 am
If you think about it no candaidte has really taken on Huck. I’m wondering if they’ve known this info and (probably much more) all along and therfore were not worried about him. they knew he would get vetted naturally without them looking like the bad guy. In the last debate he was rising in the poles but Romeny never really seemed worried about him much. Just a thought.
December 10th, 2007 at 1:06 am
That said, “taking the nation back for Christ”, as a mission statement for a president, probably appeals to most of Huck’s supporters. So it’s not likely to hurt him terribly now. It’ll just sink him in the general. If he gets there, I’ll enjoy watching.
December 10th, 2007 at 1:07 am
so i’m supposed to take mormons at their word if they tell me that their prophet who they believe received revelations directly from God, wrote their mormon bible, and founded their religion was wrong when he advocated a ‘theodemocracy’?
you’re kidding me, right?
December 10th, 2007 at 1:09 am
“Taking the nation back for Christ?”
Oh, God, if I’m wrong and you exist, save me from your followers!
December 10th, 2007 at 1:16 am
Sampo,
Three things:
-Joseph Smith was a hated man and because of that fact there was a wide body of literature with not entirely accurate info on the man. How else do you think people started believing Mormons had horns?
-Sullivan tries to say that Romney also wants a theodemocracy. Perhaps that should clue in as to his mental health.
-Regardless of what Smith said it has no import on this election because we already know where Romney stands. This is nothing more than a worthless hit piece.
December 10th, 2007 at 1:22 am
94, so joseph smith DIDNT advocate a theodemocracy? that’s just a lie?
sullivan was using logic. if the founder or one’s religion advocates something, the followers usually, um follow.
we know where romney stands? i dont. just the other day a learned he was going to swear on on the book of mormon. i dont think he said that in any of his tv ads.
December 10th, 2007 at 1:23 am
TLG, I’m afraid you may have more to worry about than God’s followers.
December 10th, 2007 at 1:24 am
How ’bout this new nickname for Huckabee.
“HuClemency”
Kind of catchy, eh?
December 10th, 2007 at 1:27 am
Sampo,
What are you talking about ROmney swearing on the Book of Mormon?
You are highly misinformed. He took is Gov oath on the Bible (as has EVERY LDS politician in history). And in “The Speech” he said:
When I place my hand on the Bible and take the oath of office, that oath becomes my highest promise to God. If I am fortunate to become your President, I will serve no one religion, no one group, no one cause, and no one interest. A President must serve only the common cause of the people of the United States.
Do you really believe yourself sometimes? I’m finding it hard to believe anything you write any of the time.
December 10th, 2007 at 1:28 am
a fellow r408 mittbot told me that. maybe i shouldn’t trust what mittbots say about mitt so much.
December 10th, 2007 at 1:31 am
http://race42008.com/2007/12/02/romney-making-a-mistake/#comment-189080
December 10th, 2007 at 1:31 am
I haven’t the foggiest about whether or not Joseph Smith said that. And frankly, I don’t care either. Perhaps you missed Romney’s speech. One point that you failed to note is that what a Mormon does in the voting booth or in the governor’s seat is his own business. Smith ran as a private citizen not as the leader of his church. Or perhaps we should follow Sullivan’s logic and say every Mormon is a clone who votes the same way(like Harry Reid). And if you believe that then I’ve got some ocean front property in Montana….
If I wanted to swear on “The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy” instead of the Bible it wouldn’t make one bit of a difference in terms of my actual job performance. So who cares?
December 10th, 2007 at 1:32 am
Sampo,
The Mormons in Utah have always had a majority . . . if they felt compelled to run a Theodemocracy there they would and could have already.
The Utah Mormons even had several decades of “self rule” before becoming a state and there wasn’t a “Theodemocracy” functioning then either.
Geez man . . . use your head as something other than a punching bag for the rest of us.
December 10th, 2007 at 1:33 am
Mcon,
Great choice of book!
December 10th, 2007 at 1:34 am
so mormons could run a theodemocracy? but don’t? that’s not being very joseph smith-like now is it?
December 10th, 2007 at 1:34 am
The National Pastor will be wearing the bulls-eye in Wednesday’s debate and he will show just how unprepared for prime-time he really is.
December 10th, 2007 at 1:35 am
Sampo,
Yeah, that comment from JAPruce might have been sarcasm along the lines of Jeff above (boy that was some funny stuff).
If not, then he’s highly mis-informed too.
December 10th, 2007 at 1:38 am
Sampo,
Use your head. We already completely discredited Sullivan. Why won’t you even entertain the idea that Smith DIDN’T actually say that. It certainly wouldn’t the first fuzzy “fact” on the man.
December 10th, 2007 at 1:38 am
106. i took him at his word. it reminded me of the time i learned that ann romney’s family was banned from their wedding. i mean really?! what family man doesn’t ban one’s family from weddings?
December 10th, 2007 at 1:39 am
Jeff,
The book was amazing. Too bad the movie just wasn’t up to snuff.
December 10th, 2007 at 1:40 am
wiki:
Theodemocracy is a political system theorized by Joseph Smith, Jr., founder of the Latter Day Saint movement. As the name implies, theodemocracy was meant to be a fusion of traditional republican democracy as practiced under the United States Constitution combined with theocratic elements. He described it as a system under which God and the people held the power to rule in righteousness.[1] Smith believed that this would be the form of government that would rule the world upon Christ’s Second Coming, which he believed was imminent.
source 1 being Joseph Smith’s very own ‘Times and Seasons’… If that’s wrong, go change it.
December 10th, 2007 at 1:42 am
Drop it Sampo (#104) . . . you’re looking like an idiot more and more with each comment.
I’m a life-long and well-read Mormon and I’ve never heard the term “Theodemocracy”
Sullivan’s pulling an obscur quote from nearly 200 years ago and trying to make political hay of it now without any meaning, context, or relevancy.
It’s reassuring to me to see that the attacks on Mitt are getting this weak.
Speaking of lame attacks on Mitt Romney was the most vitriolic anti-Mormon attack by Lawrence O-Donnell on Today’s McLaughlin Group that I’ve seen (you know it’s way out there when the Huffington Post is saying this guy’s a loon for such anti-Mormon bigotry (and yes, that’s what he’s trying to propagate, and no, I’m not playing the “victim card” . . . it’s just totally irrelevant and lame).
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/12/09/lawrence-odonnell-loses-_n_75987.html
d
December 10th, 2007 at 1:45 am
111, dont insult my intelligence. if i’m wrong prove it. otherwise keep your trap shut.
December 10th, 2007 at 1:45 am
Sampo,
You are a sad little person if you try to selectively quote wikipedia to argue your point. Either that or you have short attention span and didn’t read the rest of the article. From the article it is clear that theodemocracy is completely different than what Sullivan or you would have us believe.
Btw,
commendable for at least doing a search and checking the on the facts.
December 10th, 2007 at 1:47 am
mcon 112 applies to you too. i dont resort to insulting people who question my faith. that’s some good advice for you.
December 10th, 2007 at 1:48 am
Sampo, are you suggesting the Mormons would be successful in doing such a thing. Like, we shouldn’t vote for Romney because maybe he’d do it and there would be no way to stop him. And all our children and children’s children would eventually be turned into evil Mormons?
Seriously, what are you arguing here?
December 10th, 2007 at 1:50 am
i’m just curious as to why mormons place such an enormous faith in smith’s claims but then they turn around and think he’s off his rocker when he fought for this theodemocracy.
December 10th, 2007 at 1:52 am
Sampo,
If A then B. Read the entire article and then talk some more. As I said, the wiki article gives a different idea of theodemocracy than what you or Sullivan would have us believe.
My faith is irrelevant to this or any other discussion on this site.
December 10th, 2007 at 1:54 am
Sampo, honestly I don’t know. So Smith wanted a theodemocracy, Christ wanted a Kingdom. Do you prefer kings to quasi-democracies?
You should talk about McCain or something.
December 10th, 2007 at 1:54 am
I dont know what Sullivan and I are “having us believe”. I’m just reading what Joseph Smith says:“There is not a nation or a dynasty now occupying the earth which acknowledges almighty God as their lawgiver,†Smith told the Neighbor newspaper in Nauvoo, Illinois. “I go emphatically, virtuously and humanely, for a theodemocracy, where God and the people hold the power to conduct the affairs of men in righteousness.â€
If you dont want to believe Smith said that, you go right ahead.
December 10th, 2007 at 1:56 am
118, Jesus wanted to part in politics.
December 10th, 2007 at 2:00 am
Sampo,
If you recall I never said that he did or didn’t. I said I didn’t know and I didn’t really care.
Now assuming that he said that can you please use the rest of the wikipedia article to interpret this quote and tell me exactly what you think this means?
December 10th, 2007 at 2:14 am
Sampo,
Guess what the next sentence after that quote says….
“And where liberty, free trade, and sailor’s rights, and the protection of life and property shall be maintained inviolate, for the benefit of ALL”. (emphasis his)
Kind of puts the the other quote in context doesn’t it?
After following the links from the wikipedia article I found the Times and Seasons quote.
http://patriot.lib.byu.edu/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/NCMP1820-1846&CISOPTR=8375&REC=10
December 10th, 2007 at 2:17 am
And then two sentences later:
“With the highest sentiments of regard for all men, I am an advocate of unadulterated freedom”.
-Joseph Smith
December 10th, 2007 at 2:18 am
mcon, i’m glad to see you’re researching this for yourself. obvious it has become a burr under your saddle. but that’s really weak if you think the latter quote fixes everything.
December 10th, 2007 at 2:18 am
And once again Sullivan and Sampo and their respective smear tactics are left in ashes before perfectly easy research, logic, and reason.
December 10th, 2007 at 2:20 am
125, yes. the greatest debates are always won by the guy who declares himself the winner.
December 10th, 2007 at 2:21 am
sampo,
You can be amusing. I’ll give you that. Unfortunately it isn’t very useful arguing against you when talking about Romney or his church. That is obvious from your hatred of Romney and 108 tonight.
December 10th, 2007 at 2:24 am
Mcon, try answering this(a yes or no will do): Would Mitt Romney be forgiven if he said this:
There is not a nation or a dynasty now occupying the earth which acknowledges almighty God as their lawgiver. I go emphatically, virtuously and humanely, for a theodemocracy, where God and the people hold the power to conduct the affairs of men in righteousness.
If his next two sentences were this:
And where liberty, free trade, and sailor’s rights, and the protection of life and property shall be maintained inviolate, for the benefit of ALL. With the highest sentiments of regard for all men, I am an advocate of unadulterated freedom.
December 10th, 2007 at 2:27 am
don’t call me a hater for telling the facts.
December 10th, 2007 at 2:27 am
So tell me sampo,
How do get from these quotes to sullivan’s conclusion that “under the guise of defending freedom of conscience in the public sphere, Romney is actually attempting to limit it.” Since his only source for making the conclusion was that one cherrypicked quote I’m really curious as to how you get from point A to B.
Oh, what’s that? You can’t without a whole lot of bias and creativity?
Hmmm…Like I said the smear tactics crumble under the weight of logic.
December 10th, 2007 at 2:30 am
re 128,
He probably would not be well received if he said that. Then again I think both you and I can agree that 2007 isn’t 1844. This of course brings me to the simple point that this is utterly meaningless as Mitt has said nothing of the sort.
December 10th, 2007 at 2:32 am
actually let us continue along the same vein and have you tell me what church you belong to. Then we can talk about what your church leaders of the last century said. (you could think of me as a walking dictionary on a number of faiths)
December 10th, 2007 at 2:33 am
131=no. thanks.
December 10th, 2007 at 2:34 am
i’m not a member of any church. never have been.
December 10th, 2007 at 2:36 am
if you want to know what my church leaders say, i’d suggest reading matthew thru revelation.
December 10th, 2007 at 2:36 am
What? Fair isn’t fair? I suppose it isn’t hypocritical at all to apply a different standard for Romney! Hmm let’s see. Is McCain a Baptist now or a methodist? Where to begin?
December 10th, 2007 at 2:39 am
Sampo,
What you seem to be assuming is that Mormons believe that every word ever uttered by Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, etc . . . right down to Gordon B. Hinckley . . . is gospel truth.
That is not the case. We believe these men are prophets of God and speak for God when acting in that role. But we also realize (and they realize and admit) that the are not in the “speaking for God” role 100% of the time (it’s actually just a small sliver of their time that is spent in such a capacity IMO)
Notice how Joseph Smith said “I go emphatically . . .” with the emphasis on I/him (i.e. his own political opinion). No where are these words ever suggested in Mormon texts as prophecy or revelation (though hundreds of thousands of Smith’s words are so cannonized)
Remember, logic only works when assumptions are correct. Yours are not in this instance.
December 10th, 2007 at 2:45 am
Jeff,
Your are too kind to sampo and he probably isn’t accepting anything you just wrote. No matter as objective observers can see he is getting pOwned in this debate.
December 10th, 2007 at 2:51 am
Sampo- Although a prophet, not everything Smith said or did was considered authoritative or binding. Smith made this very clear in his teachings, that there were times when he was the Lord’s mouthpiece, and there were times he was just a man with an opinion. If Smith was acting in his role as prophet, he would often preface his statement with “Thus saith the Lord…” or something along those lines. As prophet and leader of the Mormon community, Smith’s thoughts and views on the world were respected by his followers. However, it is worth noting that Smith’s history is plagued with confrontations with individuals who disagreed with him on secular issues. Politics and governance was often a source of irratation. Smith’s views on theocracy and government evolved quite a bit during his lifetime. Theodemocracy represents just one stage of Smith’s political progression. It is unlikely that contemporary Mormons are familiar with the political opinions of Smith, since they were just opinions. We can all benefit from a modern perspective and conclusively say that Theodemocracy was a bad idea. I’m confident that most Mormons would agree.
December 10th, 2007 at 2:59 am
I never thought I’d say this but “RUDY! RUDY! RUDY!” . . . i.e. Rudolph in #139 . . . thanks for saying more clearly what I was trying to say.
Don’t you just love it when people like Sampo who know next to nothing about Mormonism spout off like they’re scholars on the subject?
December 10th, 2007 at 3:01 am
Actually Jeff give me your opinion on the second sentence of 138.
December 10th, 2007 at 3:03 am
You nailed it Mcon!
December 10th, 2007 at 3:07 am
I imagine Sampo left for bed after reading 136. Lol….
December 10th, 2007 at 3:07 am
so is Joseph Smith’s take the book of abraham authoritative even though it has more holes than swiss cheese? when he said american indians were actually jews even though DNA testing disproves him was that authoritative?
December 10th, 2007 at 3:09 am
And I am also off to bed. Actually Jeff, I have a question for you.
If a person wanted to go to Iowa for a week or so before the caucuses would it be feasible and useful?
December 10th, 2007 at 3:10 am
145, why? do you plan to pull a jay garrity and engage in fraud? this time voter fraud..
December 10th, 2007 at 3:11 am
And Sampo makes another appearance….By all means Sampo answer the questions in 130 and 136.
December 10th, 2007 at 3:13 am
Wow you are truly an idiot. Perhaps you have never heard of GOTV. I would be perfectly willing to man a call center(something I am familiar with) or do something else to help my candidate.
December 10th, 2007 at 3:14 am
McCain is a Protestant. Baptists and Episcopalians agree on fundamental things: like there was never a pre-existence, and that they don’t become Gods when they die, and they agree that Satan and Jesus were not brothers.
December 10th, 2007 at 3:16 am
Sampo,
Jay Garrity was cleared of all charges and accusations. The calls made that claimed to be from Garrity were frauds . . . probably from McCain people IMO.
MCon,
I’m sure they could find some way to use you!
send me an email at jfuller at gmail.com
December 10th, 2007 at 3:18 am
nice dodge there sampo. Religious doctrine has nothing to do with this conversation and you bringing them up in 144 and 149 only highlights your own bigotry.
December 10th, 2007 at 3:18 am
will do jeff. I’ll be free from the 22nd until Caucuses.
December 10th, 2007 at 3:20 am
for a rewriting history how-to read 150
December 10th, 2007 at 3:23 am
Sampo,
No sane Mormon thinks/claims that all American Indians are decendants of the House of Israel (not of Jews as you say . . . which were of the house of Judah). Most of the people that LDS claim came here killed eachother off.
We don’t disagree with the Bering Straight landbridge theory as being a large if not the dominant source of American Indians today.
PS . . . and my Honors Thesis was about tracking migratory patterns of American Indians based on mitochodrial DNA sequence variation . . . so I’m glad that I could provide you a well-informed response to your shaky claim.
Here’s a more recent link for you to chew on about this subject.
http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/display.php?table=review&id=503
dd
December 10th, 2007 at 3:23 am
sampo (#144) – Are you refering to “The Book of Abraham” in the Mormon scriptures or to the Egyption papyrus from which Joseph Smith purported to have obtained the manuscript?
No, Smith’s views on the origins of the Native Americans is not considered authoritative. Smith opined that the events from the Book of Mormon took place on the American continent. As such, he concluded that the remenents of the Book of Mormon peoples were the Native Americans. Modern scholars have proposed a limited geography theory to address origins of the Book of Mormon in light of the DNA testing you mention, plus new archeological evidence.
December 10th, 2007 at 3:24 am
for a how-to on completely ignoring history to foretell the future read 146.
December 10th, 2007 at 3:28 am
Sampo,
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2007/10/romney-aide-cle.html
Funny how every news source picked up the accusations against Garrity, but almost no one did the “mea culpa” when he was cleared.
December 10th, 2007 at 3:34 am
im talking about this book:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Abraham
December 10th, 2007 at 3:44 am
“The calls made that claimed to be from Garrity were frauds.” Proof?
“probably from McCain people IMO.” i know you cant back that up. oh, and it’s not funny either.
December 10th, 2007 at 3:47 am
159,
Is that any different than 146?
December 10th, 2007 at 3:48 am
The Book of Abraham is a pretty amazing piece of literature, even if you think Smith was full of it. It’s a very short read and I highly recommend it to you.
As for it’s origins, there are a number of criticisms. And a number of responses. My opinion is that Smith did not perform a literal translation, but rather used the the papyri as a source of inspiration. If you look at Smith’s history as a prophet, you’ll notice that in the beginning he was very reliant on tangible tools to assist him (i.e. peer stones, glass, and papyri). As Smith became more comfortable in his role as a prophet, he did not use tools to assist him in his revelatory actions anymore.
December 10th, 2007 at 3:55 am
well i’m off to bed.
sampo,
work out your issues with double standards and hypocrisy.
Jeff,
Hope to hear from ya.
Rudolph,
Enjoy.
December 10th, 2007 at 7:53 am
Why does everyone allow Sampo to hijack the message thread with his anti-religion bigotry? He’s a marginalized idiot which is more clear as he continues to comment.
December 10th, 2007 at 7:57 am
Moses Mike finally getting front page scrutiny…
“It seems to be true at least anecdotally that if a minister is involved, (Huckabee) seems likely to grant clemency,” prosecutor Robert Herzfeld said in 2004 after successfully battling the then-governor over the release of a killer.
Some inmates who benefited from some sort of personal connection:
_James Maxwell, who killed a pastor of the Church of God in Arkansas. Maxwell worked at the Governor’s Mansion when Huckabee announced his intent to reduce his prison sentence.
_Samuel W. Taylor, convicted on a drug charge. A prosecutor said the man had told him Taylor’s sister had gone to school with Huckabee. Huckabee said the sister didn’t influence the decision. Taylor subsequently was arrested on another drug charge.
_Donald W. Clark, convicted of theft. Huckabee’s pastor recommended leniency for Clark, whose stepmother worked on Huckabee’s gubernatorial staff.
_Robert A. Arnold Jr., who was convicted of killing his father-in-law. Arnold’s father, a former mayor of Hope, Huckabee’s hometown, said he was a casual friend of the governor.
_A pastor who promoted Huckabee among blacks urged the governor to grant clemency to John Henry Claiborne, who was sentenced to 100 years for a 1994 armed robbery, according to a 2004 report in the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette. Huckabee made Claiborne eligible for parole after receiving a letter from the Rev. Charles Williams, who told the newspaper he had helped win “many, many” clemencies from Huckabee.
_Denver Witham, convicted of beating a man to death with a lead pipe at bar, had his sentence commuted by Huckabee. The action drew the ire of prosecutors who speculated that Huckabee’s act of clemency was related to Witham, who was lead singer in a prison band, being a fellow musician.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071210/ap_po/huckabee_clemencies
December 10th, 2007 at 8:01 am
[...] race42008.com » Blog Archive » Huckabee Ads (tags: 2008 huckabee) [...]
December 10th, 2007 at 8:50 am
BTW, sampo,
This may have been answered earlier, but I can’t stomach reading all your crap so early in the morning. Ann Romney’s parents weren’t banned from her wedding. They were (like any other non-Temple Recommend Holder) not allowed to enter the Temple for the sealing of Ann and Mitt.
Why am I even responding? The facts won’t matter, I’m sure.
December 10th, 2007 at 9:05 am
How about this:
A few examples:
“In a 1994 letter to the Log Cabin Republicans, who advocate gay rights, Romney said he was in favor of “gays and lesbians being able to serve openly and honestly” in the military. He now says it would be a mistake to interfere with the “don’t ask, don’t tell policy.”
While campaigning for the governorship of Massachusetts in 2002, he said he would not “chip away” at the state’s tough gun laws. He signed up for “lifelong membership” of the National Rifle Association in 2006, while contemplating a run for the Republican nomination.
In 2005, appeared to favor immigration reform, along the lines proposed by Sen. John McCain. He now denounces it as an “amnesty plan.”
The recent discovery by the Boston Globe that illegal immigrants continued to mow his lawn a year after the matter was first brought to his attention opens him up to the the charge of hypocrisy.
Romney’s positions on abortion have shifted more frequently than he cares to admit, hardening during the primaries as he went after Republican votes and moving to the center during the general election. To claim that his positions are “consistent with my principles and my views” is a tautology that conceals the deeper truth that his views and principles have a habit of changing with the political season.
It is also a stretch for Romney to claim that he lowered taxes while Governor of Massachusetts.”
Taken from:
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/2007/12/most_revealing_fibs_mitt_romne.html
December 10th, 2007 at 9:06 am
There are some facts for you.
December 10th, 2007 at 9:21 am
Let’s take a look at the “facts”, Michael (of course this isn’t what I was talking about, but what the heck).
In 1994 Gov. Romney was of the opinion that “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” wouldn’t work. He said that as well. Subsequently, when the policy proved to be successful, he felt that it would be a mistake to interfere with a policy that worked. Gosh, how foolish. To follow a policy of “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” is completely irrational.
Immigration. You say he “appeared to favor…”. Well, since politicians are asked to opine about many things at many stages of development, I don’t find it unusual in the least that someone (politician or regular citizen) would “appear to favor…” something in its early stages and be against it when further details became available.
You really aren’t still on the Lawn Care company that hired illegal immigrants, are you? How many times does that whole line of (lack of) reasoning have to be discredited?
Abortion? “I was wrong.”. Next.
So, since we’re talking about facts, how are things on the prisoner release front this morning, Michael?
December 10th, 2007 at 9:27 am
http://www.arkansasleader.com/frontstories/st_07_21_04/huckabee5.html
http://www.ardemgaz.com/prev/jonesboro/afhuckabee08.asp
December 10th, 2007 at 9:35 am
Well, the AP has picked up on the bigger Huckabee clemency story, though it doesn’t mention that Glen Green guy.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071210/ap_po/huckabee_clemencies
I have no idea if this is going to end his candidacy, but it should. If he was otherwise a perfect conservative, I’d vote against him simply because of his ATTROCIOUS record on clemency. More then twice as many clemencies as the three previous Governors combined, ALL of whom were Democrats? This has to be a practical joke Huckabee’s supporters are playing on us.
December 10th, 2007 at 9:35 am
I did not say any of these things. Those were direct quotes from the Washington Post, who says that he is a flip-flopper.
December 10th, 2007 at 9:37 am
170 – Huck released 10 TIMES more felons than did Clinton…
December 10th, 2007 at 9:39 am
I mean honestly, Hillary would run so far to the right of Huckabee on crime and terrorism, Mike Huckabee would come out of the election looking like Neville Chamberlain.
December 10th, 2007 at 9:40 am
To her Churchhill I might add.
December 10th, 2007 at 9:55 am
Huck pretending to be an immigration hawk is hilarious. seriously. this is the guy who met with fox in arkansas and rented otu a building for $1 a month for a mexican consulate that he knew was handing out fake ids.
December 10th, 2007 at 9:57 am
huck on immigration video. judge him by his record.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5Dp7FaKIJo
December 10th, 2007 at 9:58 am
this guy is going to win because he is a slick smooth talking preacher. he just glosses over everything giving a false sense if who is is and hte ignorant masses are buying it.
why has the media refused to hold his feet to the fire.
December 10th, 2007 at 10:01 am
Drudge has headlined Huck this morning. I have a comment in moderation linking the two stories. How on earth can this guy be a serious contender?
December 10th, 2007 at 11:15 am
Irish, you have to separate your links into one per comment.
December 10th, 2007 at 11:29 am
thanks, Metro. I realized that after i posted them. I appreciate it.
December 10th, 2007 at 11:31 am
Here are the links:
demgaz.com/prev/jonesboro/afhuckabee08.asp
December 10th, 2007 at 11:32 am
and:
http://www.arkansasleader.com/frontstories/st_07_21_04/huckabee5.html
December 10th, 2007 at 9:38 pm
I don’t know about everyone else but I want the oval office to be used to better the American people and to Protect this nation not used for a pulpit to promote someones own agenda. I want a president not a political preacher or a hand puppet that has somone else pulling the strings. I think Huck and Mitt both would best serve the public by going back to their congregations. I think that they have been hanging out and comparing notes, because old Huck pulled a Mitt shuffle on the cuban embargo flub. That just goes to show how inexperienced that he is when it comes to foreign policies.