What is there left to say? This is the third debate of the general election season and the Democratic nominee once again seemed more in touch with the average non-partisan middle class voter than the Republican. Obama talked about health care while McCain talked about pork. Obama talked about Afghanistan while McCain talked about Iraq. Obama was able to explain his domestic policies while McCain simply asked us to trust him to enact policies that he didn’t seem to understand. Obama continues to seem moderate, intelligent, and reasonable, and he’s the Democrat running in a year that voters hate Republicans. Again, I will not delude myself or lie to you or anyone else. Nothing changed tonight, Obama is still on track to win the presidency in four weeks, and the Republican Party is in need of a massive overhaul if it ever hopes to be a potent political force in this country again.
October 7th, 2008 at 9:47 pm
Really? I didn’t get that impression…
October 7th, 2008 at 9:48 pm
Nothing changed tonight, but does the GOP need a massive overhaul to become a potent political force? The Dems didn’t do much in the way of overhauling, but they seem to have ceom back.
Its a two party system. It ebbs and flows.
October 7th, 2008 at 9:48 pm
No, No, No, No, McCain mopped the floor with him and got in a dig against Biden’s hair plugs to boot.
October 7th, 2008 at 9:49 pm
you are a pathetic disgrace of a person, you are a liberal hack, and you are quite simply a joke. mccain easily won this debate, he gave specific answers to economic questions while obama offered his stump speech, and on foreign policy mccain embarrassed obama.
the media driven cult of personality is the only reason obama is in this race, and with obama operatives like daveg spewing their bile, it is clear only these propaganda tactics will give obama any hope.
October 7th, 2008 at 9:50 pm
Completely disagree. Palin pushed me away last week, McCain drew me in. He talked substance and only a few times took his eye off the ball. He always answered the question – in stark contrast to Obama.
And most of all, he talked sensibly. He sounded as even as the keel he was talking about needs to be.
October 7th, 2008 at 9:50 pm
every reply to this BAN DAVEG PETITION
October 7th, 2008 at 9:50 pm
Couldn’t agree more. Please tell me there is a good reason we nominated mccain…..More likely that this will end up like 96…repubs knew we couldn’t win, and gave the old guy a chance at “the old college try”, knowing full well he wouldn’t win.
October 7th, 2008 at 9:53 pm
sorry, i totally disagree. I’m not a mccain fan but i was impressed. He started off slow but took over.
October 7th, 2008 at 9:56 pm
DaveG is an example of “big tent race42008″. Why should he be banned for saying what the polls are showing? Namely, that Obama has a big lead, and isn’t losing the debates, thus meaning he’ll probably keep his big lead.
October 7th, 2008 at 9:57 pm
“the media driven cult of personality”
Of course, McCain has also down fairly well out of that cult over the years.
October 7th, 2008 at 9:58 pm
Funny observation by TIME liveblog:
“His real problem is that he’s a Republican in a year when the Republican brand is so toxic it should qualify for a bailout.”
October 7th, 2008 at 9:58 pm
daveg is a supporter of barack hussein obama, and deserves no voice here
October 7th, 2008 at 9:58 pm
Unfortunately I have to agree with DaveG. McCain was good tonight, but Obama was better.
October 7th, 2008 at 9:59 pm
As someone that has been wildly frustrated with the campaign run by Mac, I do believe he won tonight. While he wasn’t able to truly get his footing in a townhall format that he loves – he definately was more engaging and tough on Obama. Obama stuck to his stump speech while McCain was talking specifics. A theme I heard was Obama talking about new government programs and McCain talking about pork, out of control government spending and a need for tax cuts for everyone and tax increases for no one.
Ultimately, however, there will be no game changing effect from tonight. Mac will somewhat close the gap but not close the deal. This won’t be like 1986 and Dole. McCain has a deeper reach than Dole ever had.
I am cautiously optimistic that he stopped the bleeding – but nothing more.
As for DaveG and the quick piling on by the peanut gallery… let’s focus on the task at hand which is November and all the candidates from the top to the bottom.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:01 pm
Thank you for giving it to us straight, DaveG. I was concerned you were going to lie to us or delude yourself.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:01 pm
McCain won. It will show in the polls by the end of this week. Remember, I called it first!
A major poll will show McCain tied with Obama by the end of this week!
October 7th, 2008 at 10:01 pm
DaveG is absolutely right. McCain just does not connect when it comes to the economy. He simply does not.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:02 pm
its ironic that ‘bushies’ complain about mccain, but it is bush that has crippled the republican party. mccain was leading gore by 25%, bush was tied. had we gone with mccain to begin with, we would have a permanent republican majority.
miller, daveg, and he bush righties created this situation, it is only through mccain’s heroism and character that we even have a chance in this face.
a phony like romney would have lost 45 states. huckabee had zero money and would have lost fi-cons. rudy, while he would have shredded obama in debates, would have lost the character test, along with evengelicals to obama.
mccain is the last great soldier standing, the only hope at saving america from a modern day mussolini.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:03 pm
We’ve got four weeks left, let’s keep up the hope, if McCain loses as looks like likely, let it not be because we said there was no chance and gave up – there’s still a chance.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:05 pm
Lots of liberal trolls on this blog tonight.
To any liberal troll reading this comment:
Do you agree with Obama when he said that the policies of the last 8 years made this country safer?
October 7th, 2008 at 10:06 pm
Obama may have won on connecting with middle class voters, but mccain’s closing was much stronger. all in all i think it was a draw, but in
# 4 max – you are an idiot. i suppose you will next propose that we ban all polls that show mccain down?
October 7th, 2008 at 10:06 pm
CNN Instapoll
Obama 54
McCain 30
October 7th, 2008 at 10:07 pm
WiseGuy, #16, is there a large poll of Texas coming out this week? I can’t see the polls moving to McCain in the next week.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:08 pm
I didn’t really think Obama won so much as he didn’t lose. The format was a kludgey hybrid that was constraining. Brokaw completely sucked as a moderator. I thought Obama was better on foreign policy than on the domestic issues in this debate and the first and I found him a mad muddle and mishmash talking about domestic policy. He had some real passion on foreign policy and was much more coherent on that point.
The wife left the room to go watch something else on TV because it was a snoozer, but she thought McCain made his answers with more clarity and I had to agree that Obama had great difficulty being anything close to succinct most of the time.
McCain and Obama both were off base on Georgia and Russia. We are most certainly headed for another cold war and the idea of Georgia in NATO is ridiculous. NATO is a decrepit military alliance and the EU is not going to pay the price to change that. The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq mean we don’t have the resources to project force into that region in a meaningful way and we won’t have the support of Germany, where they have decided they will not be caught between the West and Russia.
McCain didn’t score a major hit or get a gamechanger moment, so he didn’t win it. But he didn’t lose it either. All in all, I think nothing changes from this, and the McCain campaign will have to rely on the fear and smear strategy to break and potentially reverse Obama’s momentum.
I will say this: Its a bit of a punk move to have your running mate and every surrogate you claim calling out Obama as a terrorist sympathizer in the media and on the stump every day, but you don’t have the balls to bring that in the debate?
October 7th, 2008 at 10:09 pm
My two-cents is that McCain won every question except for the first Iraq question and the health care question. I thought he clearly won the debate.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:10 pm
22. Well, that’s it then. Throw in the towel now and avoid later embarrassment. Hell, why not commit suicide due to fear of one’s own mortality?
October 7th, 2008 at 10:10 pm
Aren’t insta-polls based on who agrees to be polled, right after teh debate? That means they’re not really scientific, probably people agreeing to be called light at night to be polled excludes a lot of older folks.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:11 pm
I said this the other night and I find myself repeating it again. I thought this site was about supporting the ticket whatever it may be through good and bad. Someone please tell me why DaveG is still a front page poster? Isn’t this why Alex is no longer here?
October 7th, 2008 at 10:11 pm
I didn’t watch the debate because I’ve had enough of both candidates, but I’d be stunned if a majority thought Obama won. The substance just isn’t there, generally speaking. True, McCain doesn’t care much about and cannot grasp detailed things. But if that is the case as this piece claims, it is what it is, people.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:12 pm
I do not even know why you post here.
What did I take away from the debate?
McCain wants to give tax credits to enable health care. Obama wants to fine people who don’t have health insurance for their kids/workers. Parents with asthmatic children are wrong to take them to the ER.
McCain is a soldier who knows what he’s doing. Obama is an appeasing ambassador type.
McCain wants to buy up bad mortgages and renegotiate for lower terms. Obama wants to regulate us into prosperity somehow.
McCain will fight stand up to heads of state and Obama will sit down without preconditions.
Obama voted for every possible tax increase and McCain voted against pork barrel projects.
McCain warned about Fannie and Freddie problems to years ago while Obama took their huge donations and kept his mouth shut.
McCain has stood against his party/leader on verifiable occasions whether popular or not. Obama votes strict party line.
McCain invites independent scrutiny and mentions by name non-partisan groups that will report on him AND Obama fairly.
Oh, right, Obama won. Sheesh.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:13 pm
McCain had a game changer tonight with his government mortgage buyout. Unfortunately, I am vigorously opposed to that idea. Ugh.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:13 pm
#20 You sure Obama said that the “policies of the last 8 years” have made the country safer? He usually couches that statement in language that attributes post-9/11 security to everyday men/women and dumb luck.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:14 pm
Let me put it this way. None of these first 3 debates had a clear winner, but in turn, that bodes well for Obama. Obama just finds a way to connect with Americans, and to us that may be BS, but to independents, they love that.
If the focus remains on the economy and these debates, Obama will win. McCain has 4 weeks, and after tonight, things have not changed much. Let’s just hope those 4 national polls out today that have it within 3 points are the trend thru Nov. 4.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:16 pm
CBS hit job tonight. The media is picking the candidate this year, and I am really upset that former journalism students are selecting the course of our future. We are completely screwed this year! McCain knows what the heck he is doing and we are allowing the media to decide for us. We Will be second class to china in 4 years.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:16 pm
Seth made an important point earlier. Should we exclude polls just because they’re showing numbers that are favorable for Obama? Should we ignore InTrade just because it has Obama leading 70-29?
This isn’t just a cheerleading site. For that, go to the McCain campaign site.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:18 pm
The RNC is one step closer to more of its money into Senate races and less into McCain’s campaign. The most important people in American right now are Norm Coleman, Liddy Dole, Roger Wicker, Norm Coleman, John Sununu and even that corrupt idiot Ted Stevens. I am so desperate now I am praying Ted Stevens wins.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:18 pm
#20. WiseGuy.
Americans don’t give a damn about terrorism right now. People are losing their jobs, homes, their 401(k), their overall financial security. McCain just does not connect on the economy. If he did, he would win this election. It is not that their are liberal trolls here, it is that they understand what McCain needs to do in order to win. This is not 2004, my friend.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:19 pm
I actually was asleep with the TV turned off during the debate.
Absent a knock out blow McCain wasn’t coming back this close to the election.
He’s got one more chance. Then we have to depend on a big scandal to derail Obama.
It seems like when voters got down to it, they prefer a suspicious and untrustworthy Democrat to a war hero Republican. I guess “don’t ask, don’t tell” is on the way out now. It’s a shame too. I enjoyed not having sexual behaviors come up at work.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:20 pm
I am very close to panic stage right now. If we can’t save McCain we must save enough Republican Senators to filibuster. Even if one of those Senators is the corrupt Ted Stevens.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:20 pm
DaveG, you’re right there with Andy McCarthy at NRO:
You Guys Are Nuts [Andy McCarthy]
We have a disaster here — which is what you should expect when you delegate a non-conservative to make the conservative (nay, the American) case. We can parse it eight ways to Sunday, but I think the commentary is missing the big picture.
Here’s what Obama needed to do tonight: Convince the country that he was an utterly safe, conventional, centrist politician who may have leftward leanings but will do the right thing when the crunch comes.
Now, as the night went along, did you get the impression that Obama comes from the radical Left? Did you sense that he funded Leftist causes to the tune of tens of millions of dollars? Would you have guessed that he’s pals with a guy who brags about bombing the Pentagon? Would you have guessed that he helped underwrite raging anti-Semites? Would you come away thinking, “Gee, he’s proposing to transfer nearly a trillion dollars of wealth to third-world dictators through the UN”?
Nope. McCain didn’t want to go there. So Obama comes off as just your average Center-Left politician. Gonna raise your taxes a little, gonna negotiate reasonably with America’s enemies; gonna rely on our very talented federal courts to fight terrorists and solve most of America’s problems; gonna legalize millions of hard-working illegal immigrants.
McCain? He comes off as Center-Right .. or maybe Center-Left … but, either way, deeply respectful of Obama despite their policy quibbles.
Great. Memo to McCain Campaign: Someone is either a terrorist sympathizer or he isn’t; someone is either disqualified as a terrorist sympathizer or he’s qualified for public office. You helped portray Obama as a clealy qualified presidential candidate who would fight terrorists.
If that’s what the public thinks, good luck trying to win this thing.
With due respect, I think tonight was a disaster for our side. I’m dumbfounded that no one else seems to think so. Obama did everything he needed to do, McCain did nothing he needed to do. What am I missing?
October 7th, 2008 at 10:21 pm
Speaking of bad polls, have you seen the Ipsos/McClatchy poll? Dire stuff.
Obama leads 47-40, but the damage is in the questions.
The econopmy is the #1 issue (42%) and Obama leads 52-37.
But Obama also leads on family values and taxes – that’s gotta be bad news for McCain.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:21 pm
DaveG…you love quoting CNN’s instapol yet you never mention the fact that anyone can delete their cookies and vote on these polls over and over and over again. You have a way of jumpimg on a bandwagon and unfortunately the bandwagon is on the wrong side of the aisle. Obama looked like a deer in headlights on numerous occasions throughout the night.
McCain spoke to the people, Obama preached…McCain asked for the people to let him lead, Obama demanded it…McCain won, Obama lost!!!
October 7th, 2008 at 10:21 pm
Dave is not going anywhere. He co-founded this site with me back in 2005. I would just assume ban myself than I would ban Dave. In fact, I would go so far as to say that I have no right to tell Dave to do anything. He is my friend and a critical part of everything that Race42008 has accomplished.
There is a big difference between expressing an honest opinion, which is what Dave does, and copy and pasting absurdly false talking points directly from Daily Kos 2 hours before Sarah Palin talks the stage in St. Paul—which is what Alex did.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:21 pm
“It seems like when voters got down to it, they prefer a suspicious and untrustworthy Democrat to a war hero Republican.”
Sounds like ‘96 all over again. Too bad circumstances in the world are so different or might not matter as much…
October 7th, 2008 at 10:22 pm
All we have left now is for the McCain campaign to have enough people to go through every trash can and dumpster in Chicago. It will do no good to spend $100 on tv ads. They will not move this election one point in our direction. We must find a scandal now.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:22 pm
I think most people stopped watching because they were bored…I was bored and I am a political junkie…too bad the headline will be that Obama won…
October 7th, 2008 at 10:23 pm
The other info from that poll…
Biden is qualified to be President, polling 60/32. But Palin’s scores are still not improving, with her numbers at 43/51.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:23 pm
everything being even, mccain might have one. but its the bottom of the 8th inning, and the GOP is down 10 runs, because their starting pitcher has been giving up runs for the last 8 innings (years) . GOP could still win, but not if they don’t do something big.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:24 pm
#40, I agree that McCain should’ve nailed him on the Ayers connection…Obama appeared unsure…I can’t believe you didn’t see that.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:25 pm
37: McCain won the economic debate.
* Obama raised taxes 94 times.
* Obama would tax 50% of small businesses.
* Obama would mandate fines for health insurance
* Obama wants gas prices to go up — that’s why he does not fully support offshore drilling or nuclear energy
* Obama was tied hard to Fannie/Freddie and to the Wall Street meltdown.
And Obama looked totally out of his league on foreign policy. He defended meeting Ahmadinejad without preconditions! Amazing!
Like I have predicted, McCain will be tied with Obama by the end of this week. Count on it.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:25 pm
Kavon, #43, thanks for making that clear. This site has a wide variety of views. And that’s a good thing.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:26 pm
Nice post, Marie,
This night was McCain’s night. He did very well. McCain did well tonight and if he follows it up with another good debate, this could be a very close call.
I still have hope that when election night comes that people will somehow chicken out for voting for Obama, after all, isn’t it obvious that he would be the most unprepared president in the history of the United States? Are we prepared to elect an unprepared president at a time when we need someone with experience?
I just hope that if McCain loses, that we regain one branch of the federal government back. If we have straight Dems, we are in big trouble.
Let’s hope for the best and let’s pray that we survive the next 4 years no matter what happens.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:26 pm
If one of the candidates was the challenger and the other the sitting President in that debate, who would you have thought was the latter. McCain, easily.
I have never seen him better. Only major screw-up is that health care is a right (as well as a responsibility). Obama got that right, McCain got that one wrong.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:28 pm
Kavon, if you feel that by cherry-picking CNN polls and taking a stance that the MSliberalM is going to take as an honest opinion then maybe you are as out of touch as DaveG is?
October 7th, 2008 at 10:28 pm
#53: Health care is a right?
This is why the GOP hasn’t done its job. People posting on Republican sites are absolutely clueless about socialism. As is our nominee.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:28 pm
Rove and Romney look rather uninspiring defending McCain. It’s very telling. They know its over.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:29 pm
So the silverlining is that if Obama does not end up being the anti-christ, at least the Republicans will have a winning ticket in 2012. I believe the economy will still be bad (even if Obama makes world piece) as there will be no change in our deficit spending and the Republican ticket will probably be Romney/Palin. In a bad economy that is a definitely a winning ticket…
October 7th, 2008 at 10:31 pm
The government buyout of mortgages is socialist and WRONG and McCain blew it on that. Otherwise he cleaned up.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:32 pm
To paraphrase Reagan, Americans didn’t leave the republican party, the republican party left America.
All thru the primary, we McCain fans got lectured on how McCain wasn’t “Republican enough” to be the party’s standard bearer. Americans have no use for McCain’s tax cuts. They feel the party has turned it’s back on anyone making less than $50,000/year. Instead they want to hear speeches about making mortgages affordable, destroying golden parachutes, affordable college, anti-free trade measures, government mandated health care, etc. etc.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:32 pm
I’m with DaveG and Andy McCarthy. Tonight McCain lost the election. There’s no other way around it as far as I’m concerned. You either need to be more empathetic then Obama (Huckabee, Palin) or you need to be smarter, more coherent, and more knowledgeable (Romney). McCain is neither. A Palin who’d been running for two years, and who frankly was harmed by having to face the old school blue-collar Democrat Biden, could have walked all over Obama tonight. I’m near total despair; I’d write it on the front page, but I have a policy of not writing anything, in a formal matter, which can’t possibly help my team. It’s clear that screaming at McCain to start running as a blue-collar economic populist is fruitless; he couldn’t manage that even if someone could convince him it was necessary. So I’m going to avoid leaving a huge footprint that will be unremittingly negative, to no positive effect.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:33 pm
I understand thinking things are bad for McCain, they obviously are. What I don’t understand is the absolute lack of hope by some people. The fact is we don’t know the future, and to claim to only discourages people from even trying. Please let’s save the post-game anaylsis for after the game.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:33 pm
Time to start clinging to guns and religion.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:34 pm
#55 Metro
life, liberty, and the pursuit of comprehensive health insurance.
Seriously, have you never read the declaration of independence??
October 7th, 2008 at 10:35 pm
John King – one of the best analysts out there – commented on a CNN poll “who do you trust to handle the economy?” O 59% Mac 37%
King: If those numbers hold up – a 20 point lead on leading the economy – then this race is over.
I’ll add if they hold up and are true (no Bradley effect), then I have a tough time seeing McCain winning. I can not believe this!
October 7th, 2008 at 10:35 pm
Is there not a single other person here who thinks the Republican party needs to do a better job explaining economic conservatism?
If nobody is going to stand up for that, then the GOP won’t, then America won’t, then modern civilization will end.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:37 pm
McCain’s camp is totally screwing up this campaign. As long as they’re running things, he’s not going to win. As much as I would like to pull McCain out and put in a winner, we can’t, and we can’t afford to lose this year. Somebody’s going to have to do something from outside the campaign to turn this thing around.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:37 pm
Our candidate takes most of his advice from Lindsey Graham and Joe Lieberman. McCain is no man of principle. He is pouring on the populism trying to outdo a socialist. Not gonna fly. He needs to do like Reagan and speak the truth and change hearts and minds or we’ll have Obama, Ried, and Pelosi on a socialist rampage starting in January.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:40 pm
Metro, I don’t disagree with you but it’s hard to sell the free market when the people want a handout. I don’t agree with the bailout or a mortgage bailout but if McCain doesn’t take a populis stance on these issues he will lose and I thik in a lot of ways McCain was selling conservative economics.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:40 pm
How can our side promote economic conservatism when our standard bearer is busy handing out government money to buy home mortgages?
October 7th, 2008 at 10:40 pm
McCain’s not going to change, yet he’s nowhere near as bad a candidate as Obama. Somebody needs to do something to stop Obama. We can’t afford to have such a liberal in office with a liberal congress, while Supreme Court Justices are going to be chosen.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:40 pm
There is a case to be made that a town hall format would not have been a good situation for McCain to bring up Bill Ayers, Rezko, or Wright, because it could easily have backfired on McCain.
Obama hypothetical response: “You see, voters came here to find out what we’re going to do about the economic crisis that George Bush has put us into with John McCain’s help. And John McCain wants to change the topic and discuss some professor who I barely know, and who I have condemned many times before.” (Never mind whether any of that is true; it’s not like the audience in the hall has a collection of Stanley Kurtz articles about Obama and Ayers at hand.)
October 7th, 2008 at 10:41 pm
MCCAIN WON CNN’S, THATS C N N, FOCUS GROUP
i thought anderson cooper was going to cry
October 7th, 2008 at 10:42 pm
No Republican would be ahead right now. The last 2 polls in Georgia have Saxby Chambliss in a dead heat. He was up double digits until the market crashed. I am going to scream until I am blue in the face that we need to have enough Senate seats to filibuster. That is the only game in town now.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:42 pm
#68: McCain could’ve said that Obama’s programs are half-socialism, and that socialism has never fixed any economy, but has destroyed countless economies, and that was the #1 lesson of the 20th Century.
But Good God, the man doesn’t even know this.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:43 pm
65
Metro, you missed me here:
http://race42008.com/2008/09/27/re-president-elect-obama/#comment-360032
October 7th, 2008 at 10:43 pm
Romney was the only GOP guy that could have won this year. In the TV age Mac is just not effective. He’s painful to watch and can’t make a powerful, concise argument. “Trust me” is not going to work.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:44 pm
Metro,
Sure. I supported Romney, after all, who explained many aspects of economic conservatism quite persuasively. But, I honestly think that “explanation” secondary to actually winning elections. I think McCain could run on Ron Paul’s economic plan, and if he could connect it persuasively to the concerns of average Americans, in a way that’s informal and compassionate, he’d be able to beat Obama. I’m fine with somebody selling a genuinely more conservative economic agenda. But, I think they need to “connect” it not “explain” it.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:44 pm
WOWOWOWOWOWOW!
McCain won CNN’s focus group??
October 7th, 2008 at 10:45 pm
#77: That’s why I was fine with Romney ideologically but not from an electability standpoint.
Rudy or Fred would be decimating Obama.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:45 pm
John cringes at the thought of health care as a right, but apparently owning a home is? At least Obama is consistent in his belief that everything is a right. The idea that no homeowner is too big to fail is a recipe for financial suicide as people realize that they can get a better deal by simply not paying their mortgage. I honestly don’t see the difference between McCain, Obama, or Bush, except that Obama would raise taxes to pay for socialist health care, and McCain will continue to increase spending (and debt) to pay for socialist housing. Pick your poison. Didn’t hear the words “balanced budget” once. Never heard it. We’ve come along way from Ross Perot’s giant charts.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:47 pm
I think the first half of the debate was a wash. I feel that McCain actually outperformed Obama in the second part (you guessed it) about foreign policy. That handshake with the veteran was really powerful, and Obama just seemed awkward afterward. I do not think that McCain did any damage, in fact I think he did a little good. Problem is, he shouldn’t be our nominee. We banked on the foreign policy candidate, and this election is definitely shaping up to be about the economy. It should be Romney/Palin. Guarantee we wouldn’t be pulling out of MI (worst idea EVER!!!) if that were the case.
I’ve been reluctantly supporting Mac for a while now, and I realize again why I voted how I did in my state’s primary. But that aside, we can very much still win this…if polls determined elections, Kerry would be running for term 2 right now. Hold tough and FIGHT!
October 7th, 2008 at 10:48 pm
Basically: campaigns matter and candidates matter. Issues don’t. That’s where I am, and no one is going to convince me otherwise. If issues mattered, Ayers would be enough to doom Obama. BAIPA would be enough to doom Obama. Voting to ban all handguns would be enough to doom Obama. Issues are utterly useless, except insofar as they’re used by campaigns to tap into the vital nerve center of the American public and to create coherent, meaningful, consistent narratives.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:49 pm
78
WOW is right!
That is the BEST news of the night!! That focus group thought Obama won the debate and blah blah blah.
Then when asked the ONLY question that matters… Who are you voting for today? Mac won!
WOW
October 7th, 2008 at 10:49 pm
Dan McClauglin at Redstate shows how both Ford and Dole closed bigger gaps than what McCain needs to close.http://www.redstate.com/diaries/redstate/2008/oct/07/yes-wecan/#comment. Now’s not the time to give up. If we loses, we’ll have plenty of time for grieving, but now’s not the time for grieving now’s the time for fighting.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:50 pm
NO MORE BAILOUTS!
October 7th, 2008 at 10:50 pm
On the other thread I said that Obama won by a narrow decision. It certainly was not a knockout. It was the most boring debate I have ever watched.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:50 pm
#82 But somebody ends up getting elected, and their issues determine our future.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:52 pm
“Rudy or Fred would be decimating Obama.” What a coincidence you think the canidate you supported would have won the election. That shows real objectivity.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:53 pm
Matthew,
Issues do matter. Ayers and BAIPA and 2nd amendment will eventually sink Obama. Ayers will not go away. CNN just did a great piece on it. It is now on top of Google News.
It just needs to take about a couple of weeks to get this into the public’s collective mindset
October 7th, 2008 at 10:53 pm
#88 Most here would agree.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:53 pm
Having said that I don’t think Obama closed the sale tonight. Neither one did.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:54 pm
Huck was the bastard who ruined this for the GOP. His sole purpose in running was to screw Romney. We can blame him for President Obama.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:56 pm
Obama DID NOT wint he debate however. It was a wash really. There is some hope, I hope.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:56 pm
It’s hard to imagine worse circumstances for Republicans, so I think it’s ridiculous to say any candidate would be decimating Obama.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:57 pm
Ayers is a waste of time. No one cares. Will I have a job tomorrow? That I care about. Why can’t the McCain campaign get that?
October 7th, 2008 at 10:58 pm
#94 A competent economic conservative would point out that Obama’s policies are precisely those which SINK economies, not fix them.
It’d be quite EASY to make that case.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:58 pm
Huckabee was well liked in Arkansas –A reliably red state I might add.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:58 pm
If I can’t get people at a GOP website to agree with #96, the GOP is absolutely worthless.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:59 pm
that CNN focus group is probably on its way to Siberia now
October 7th, 2008 at 10:59 pm
DaveG, Matthew, Metro, etc. all have it right. This election is over and we need to start diverting resources to Senate races. Let McCain spend his 86 million or whatever and then give all the RNC money to a few key races.
Let’s start with MN, NC, and OR. If things start looking okay there then we can expand to AK (assuming he is acquited), CO and LA. I think a this point NM, NH and VA are lost.
October 7th, 2008 at 10:59 pm
sampo, you’re the idiot who worshipped and helped sell the GOP on this f’ing idiot we have as our nominee.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:00 pm
90, And what a suprise that is. Allmost all here supported Rudy or Romney, and McCain was one of their last choices – it’s just amazing how objective all you guys are. Also I would hope that most people have enough intellectual honesty to recognize that these are extremely bad cirbumstances for Republicans, and their caniddate would not have had a cakewalk either.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:00 pm
after mccain won the focus group, cnn didn’t mention it again, going back to their flash polls.
when confronted with the human reality, cnn ignores it to push obama.
fact is, when push came to shove, the people chose mac.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:00 pm
Metro,
Sure, issues matter in terms of our future, but they don’t matter to the electorate. Not to the folks who decide elections. I’m voting in my first Presidential election this year, and I’ve learned a valuable lesson that will stay with me for the rest of them; always nominate the “best politician” who comes within shouting distance of your views. Which means I’m probably voting for Palin or Pawlenty in the 2012 primary.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:01 pm
88:
I’m a Romney supporter and I agree Giuliani would be pounding Obama. I doubt Thompson would though.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:02 pm
It’s easy to say McCain is the worst of the 5 major candidates. Even Huckabee, though I hate his policies would be ahead of Obama right now, though I wouldn’t necessarily be happy about the direction he would take us if he were elected.
It’s too bad the rest of us didn’t get our act together to surround one or two other alternatives. Instead we split the field and let McCain win without ever having support from the base.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:03 pm
I thought McCain had a shining moment tonight when he was explaining his stand on foreign policy and how he would defend our country. I have always respected his stand on the surge and Iraq, but I’ve never been impressed with his communciation skills- until tonight. He finally connected with me. He gave me a reason tonight to vote for him rather than vote against Obama.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:04 pm
Saw clips of McCain’s campaign speech today. He was tough ,forceful and really spelled out the Dem’s role in this whole economic mess.
Why can’t he come across like that in these debates?
Let’s give the devil his due. Obama is really good at connecting with the “average Joe”.He comes across as just a regular moderate liberal Dem.who really cares for the little guy.
McCain will never beat him on personality. His only hope is to really expose how liberal Obama is and what a disaster it would be to have a Liberal Dem President and an unrestrained liberal Dem Congress.
If he can’t effectively do that in the next few weeks,our party and our nation are in for a rough four years.
God help us.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:04 pm
Who says Ayers doesn’t matter.
Less than 10% of the public has heard the connection between Ayers and Obama.
It is only coming out now thanks to Palin. And it is now a TOP NEWS STORY according to Google.
Once Obama is painted as an out-of-touch liberal who will raise taxes, he will crater. Once Americans start learning about Ayers, Obama will crater.
Like I predicted earlier, I think McCain closes the gap by the end of this week.
Obama didn’t even rebut the fact that he voted for tax hikes 94 times. He also would mandate a fine for healthcare. Obama was shaken up this debate.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:05 pm
Metro,
Regarding #98, you are exactly right. I would have loved to be on the stage with Obama. It would be very easy to point out all the flaws in his socialist agenda and explain why my free market agenda would make everyone’s lives better.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:05 pm
“Rudy or Fred would be decimating Obama.” – LOL
I like Rudy and Fred (especially Fred), but if you asked me to name two campaigns that were run worse than McCains…..
October 7th, 2008 at 11:06 pm
Metro’s right. It would not be that hard to thrash Obama on the issues. He is a radical socialist and these views will not help America. The problem is that McCain has no ability to articulate anything. He’s a flop for us. I want him to win, but for people who only vote based on image and emotion, Mac is a sure loser.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:06 pm
Reagan/Republican/free market talking points win after 4 years of Carter. They lose after 8 years of Bush43. Obama’s message of punitive taxes on the rich is the winning message this cycle. It doesn’t matter how well the Republican talking points are presented.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:06 pm
Anyone have a link to the cnn focus group video?
October 7th, 2008 at 11:07 pm
Metro,
It’s good to see that we share the same disdain for sampo.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:07 pm
its more than likely over, however, if the market rallies 1000 pts, which it will likely do in the next week and half, and then quiets up for the remaining weeks then Mccain still has a chance as the older crowd will trickle back to him, but he needs a lot of things to come together for him…first among them is his own guts to go after the economic issue and not be afraid of it
October 7th, 2008 at 11:08 pm
96, If an economic conservative couldn’t convince the Republican party to vote for him, how is it that he would convince the Ameican people. You’re somebody who think that your ideas are so right that they’ll win everytime – just because it seems obvious to you doesn’t mean it’s a sell to the American people. It doesn’t matter whether we ran Rudy, Romney, Fred… They still would have been tied to Bush, their tax-cut plan would be lambasted as giveaways to the rich, and they would be potrayed as continuing the Bush policies that people see as responsible for the complete market collapse. For you folks to think that your candidate would have it easy is to suspend objectivity and engage in Botism.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:08 pm
#113, that just sounds like defeatism philosophy.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:09 pm
sampo,
McCain is not even trying to sell free market economics. He is a horrible advocate to begin with, but when you don’t even have a plan that your are trying to sell or advocate, you lose to a candidate as bad as Obama.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:09 pm
TennJoe,
“Let’s give the devil his due. Obama is really good at connecting with the “average Joe”.He comes across as just a regular moderate liberal Dem.who really cares for the little guy.”
Nonsense. It took Obama 2 years to get the right script and he’s still not traditionally effective at “connecting”. He has the right script, a soothing presence, and he’s facing a candidate who can only run one sort of campaign, which doesn’t happen to be the sort of campaign that Obama’s vulnerable to. Obama is winning by inertia. If you made Palin the nominee, and managed to get two years worth of knowledge and fluency into her head, she’d be creaming Obama. He’s UNIQUELY vulnerable to that sort of blue-collar, folksy, personable, message. McCain presumably realized this, thus the Palin selection, but he can’t deliver the message himself and Palin doesn’t yet have the fluency or comfort on the national stage to do it.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:09 pm
This is why we may lose. Why is it that you all are giving up 3-4 WEEKS before a single vote is counted? Anything, absolutely anything can happen between now and November 4th. Remember Rathergate? How about the Bin Laden video? The fight has not finished and yet you all are giving up. We should work twice as hard to beat these elitist entitled sobs.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:09 pm
Seriously, after listening to the stunning orator that is George W. Bush, I had high hopes that the GOP would nominate someone that, as the face of the party, doesn’t make us look/sound like dim-wits. Never misunderestimate the stupidity of the republican electorate.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:11 pm
Our rally needs to be, “we won with Bush against a veteran, surely we can win with a war hero against a socialist”
October 7th, 2008 at 11:11 pm
Kudos for your honesty Dave.
You know McCain might be best to start downplaying his chances and asking people to vote for him to make it close so Obama doesn’t get too big head with a huge win.
In the hope that the press call this thing all over and many Democrats feel like they don’t have to vote. Maybe he could sneak a win that way? His only chance I think.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:11 pm
#113, I agree. This year a Huckabee or a Pawlenty could have won. No one else in the GOP had better chances this year.
It’s hard to say who the strongest GOP nominee would be in 2012. Depends on where the economy is and how radical the Democrats are in complete power.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:13 pm
100- Thank you. Focus on Senate races
Metro won’t like this, but the American people want liberal economics this year. The only way to beat Obama is on culture.
I am never voting for a candidate again who can’t explain anything, at least in a primary. When is the last time we had an articulate candidate? Reagan?
October 7th, 2008 at 11:14 pm
John Mark,
You are absolutely wrong on Fred, Rudy and Mitt. The MSM would attempt to send the message that they were a Bush 3rd term, but
all three would have been smart enough actually talk about the economy and counter that message.
All three would have capitalized on the energy issue.
All three would have offered targeted middle class tax cuts.
All three would have been much more critical of the bailout and explained what caused the crash.
All three would actually be talking about free market healthcare reforms.
All three would be beating Obama. This election isn’t about bipartisanship or foreign policy so McCain automatically is our worst candidate. It’s too bad 2/3’s of us couldn’t get our act together and unite around someone better.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:15 pm
Jonathan,
I’m not giving up. If I were giving up I’d be excoriating McCain on the front page, instead of in the comments section. But, I don’t know what you expect me to do when I feel that John McCain has royally botched this race. I refer you to the Ace of Spades trenchant post: http://ace.mu.nu/archives/274960.php#274960 (lots of bad language for folks who don’t know the site).
October 7th, 2008 at 11:16 pm
127-The Democrats are going to win sometime. This year is the type of a year where any D would beat any R short of a scandal. Hence my call to go through all of the trash dumpsters in Chicago. Why should McCain even waste the $84 million? He would gain more votes by giving the money to charity.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:22 pm
McCain was trusted more on the economy in the REPUBLICAN primary on the economy. Long before McCain was the party’s nominee, the country trusted Democrats on the economy on a generic ballot. That’s a fact. Look it up. McCain has spoken passionately about corruption on wall street and has a glowing record of fighting it. People just don’t want to hear it. People want to hear: Tax the rich, but cut my taxes.
McCain’s delivery is fine. It’s the message that’s the loser.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:22 pm
Even if there is no game-changer, this race will tighten up big-time.
Before the wall-street meltdown, McCain was up in all the polls. After the meltdown, the pendulum swung towards Obama. This is a high-point for Obama. McCain can only move up in the polls. The pendulum will swing back.
McCain is saving all his money for the last 3 weeks of the campaign.
Ayers, BAIPA, and the 2nd amendment will cause Obama to sink like Dukakis sank.
Ties to Fannie/Freddie will cause the pendulum to swing in the other direction.
And painting Obama as a serial tax-raiser who would also mandate a government-run healthcare bureaucracy will put the nails in Obama’s political coffin.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:23 pm
There is no excuse for a reasonable GOP candidate to lose a national campaign against Obama.
The only reason Hillary lost is because she listened to the idiot Mark Penn and decided to bring out Wright and Ayers when it was already too late. Obama was doing terribly when he finally limped across the delegate line in the summer.
McCain has repeatedly blown opportunities to win this campaign and it is fine for all of us people who reluctantly jumped on the bandwagon in March to be very, very disappointed. Think about how much many of us despise much of what McCain stands for politically, yet we ignored that for the sake of whatever and McCain has shown that he doesn’t really care that much if he wins this thing.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:24 pm
So the media is going to help John McCain paint Obama as an out-of-touch liberal who will raise taxes…right….that is delusional. McCain keeps proposing liberal ideas. All Obama has to say is “Senator McCain is right. I’ll do that, too”, and Obama wins. They agree on nearly EVERY issue. How dangerous can Obama be if he and McCain agree on the remedy: more government?
October 7th, 2008 at 11:25 pm
you clowns forget that McCain was trusted more on the economy in virtually all the exit polls. McCain already beat Fred, Rudy, and Romney on the economy.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:26 pm
I’m sure the race will swing back slightly to McCain, but only enough so that he will lose by 2-3% nationally and by at least 80 electoral votes. Barring a miracle, when we stay up late on election night, it will have nothing to do with McCain.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:26 pm
“It’s easy to say McCain is the worst of the 5 major candidates.” Oh I don’t now, let me see: ” McCain is the worst of the five major canidates” yeah you’re right that was easy to say. However, it’s pointless and entirely unverifiable. We can talk on and on about the upsides and downsides of all the candidates, but it’s all subjective and there’s no way to know how the other canidates would have done, McCain was the most electable candidate we had by the only half way objective measure – polls. Even if we could know who would have been better, it’s a distraction from the election and pointless. Let’s save this talk for four, just four weeks people! Can’t we wait that long?
October 7th, 2008 at 11:27 pm
#134: More evidence that the GOP lost its sense about economics.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:27 pm
If I would have known this was going to happen, I would have crossed over and voted for Hillary in the D primary. At least she has some clue.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:27 pm
The culture warriors are to blame.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:29 pm
ACORN registered the dallaas cowboys while in nevada trying to register minorities for obama. unreal. these people are insane
October 7th, 2008 at 11:29 pm
139- Among your friends you are probably right, but where I live the opposite is true. People I know would vote D but cultural issues prevent them from doing so.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:30 pm
you gloom and doomers are really pathetic.
mccain, to win, must hold red states. period. ohio, florida, va, nc, mo, nevada, co. red all. mccain holds, he wins.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:30 pm
Phrases that should be banned at least until the end of this election:
“So and so would have been a better candidate”
“The election is over”
“We have lost”
“Bradley Effect”
“Dukakis was beating Bush by 18 points”
“Mitt Romney”
October 7th, 2008 at 11:31 pm
“There is no excuse for a reasonable GOP candidate to lose a national campaign against Obama.” Yeah you’re right, except for a few little things like the incumbent Republican president having the highest disaproval rating in history, facing what could be the greatest economic crisis since the great depression on this president’s watch, the fact the vast majority of Americans think we’re on the wrong course… except for little things like that you’re absolutely right.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:31 pm
#141 Again, that’s because there’s no nominee like Reagan or Giuliani or Gingrich to educate those voters about economic conservatism.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:32 pm
John Mark,
I think Huckabee is worse than McCain overall, but when I said McCain was the worst, I was talking about getting elected when economics is the overwhelming issue. People either want someone who feels their pain and talks about their issues or someone who they actually believe is smart enough to fix the problem. Obama can’t do either one, but neither can McCain so the issue swings to its neutral position of favoring the out of power party. If we had a candidate who had an advantage over Obama on either of things, we would be winning right now.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:32 pm
Yes. But a ham sandwich in a Haradi neighborhood could beat Fred, Rudy, and especially the equity-sector candidate, Romney, on the economy.
McCain was, and perhaps still is, our best shot this cycle.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:32 pm
Bush’s approval ratings are at 22%. TWENTY TWO F’IN PERCENT!!!! Anyone care to find an example where a presidential candidate representing the same party as a two term President has EVER been able to get elected. It’s impossible. It has never happened and probably never will happen –an ANY country.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:33 pm
Right DSkinner,
If anybody had a crystal ball and could see where we are today economicaly, McCain would not be our nominee.
Without the economic mess,he was probably the right choice in a bad year for Republicans.
But with this mess, Rudy and Romney had the economic plans, experience and credibility on the issue that could have more than countered Obama.
All we can do is hope Obama’s radical relatioinships, fishy fundraising and true extreme liberal views get exposed in the next few weeks and that it will be enough to make voters choose McCain as the safer choice.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:34 pm
Over at Hot Air a Jewish man and Obama supporter just claimed that McCain won Florida because of Obama’s weak answer over defending Israel if iran attacked it. If that is the only thing that John does right tonight without Obama improving very much, then he indeed did win the debate. Does anybody see Obama’s answer to the question in the same light? By the way coming out tomorrow the Zogby tracking poll has McCain only down by 2 points.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:36 pm
147, thanks for the air support. but werent you a rudy guy?
October 7th, 2008 at 11:36 pm
#147/#148, ALL HE HAD TO DO WAS SAY OBAMA’S POLICIES ARE HALF-SOCIALISM AND THAT SOCIALISM HAS NEVER FIXED ANY ECONOMY BUT INSTEAD HAS DESTROYED COUNTLESS ECONOMIES.
Or something remotely like it.
Look, the argument is not that McCain is behind in the polls, it’s that has no f’ing clue what to say about economics.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:36 pm
It is so tiring to see people trotting out the ol’ line about how some other GOP candidate could have been doing so much better than McCain.
If we try to get beyond empty assertions and really think about whether that could be true or not, the one hard, inescapable empirical fact that emerges is all of them have a recent record of running worse campaigns than did McCain. By definition. He is the nominee, they aint.
Any assertion that they would be doing better vs. Obama has no grounding in reality.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:36 pm
145? So are you saying economic conservatism always wins when the voters are educated about it?
October 7th, 2008 at 11:37 pm
To put it another way, even McCain could beat Huck, or Rudy, or Mitt…
October 7th, 2008 at 11:37 pm
Man, I thought McCain still had a chance, but it seems like supporters are already making excuses about why he lost. Obama’s made so many mistakes that would be easy to exploit I can’t imagine why McCain’s camp hasn’t done it. If McCain loses this election (God forbid) then there’s nobody to blame but McCain, his camp, and the people who nominated him.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:37 pm
152, metro your problem is that you think if only people could be as knowledgeable as you, they’d think exactly like you. that’s obama-like arrogance.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:38 pm
#154. Yes. Ever heard of Ronald Reagan?
October 7th, 2008 at 11:40 pm
158, Okay next question, do you think Rudy Guiliani was a good pursuader about economics.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:41 pm
#159: Absolutely. He persuaded liberal New Yorkers of all people. Quashed the NYT in intellectual debate. And turned around a major American government like nobody ever has in history.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:41 pm
158, 4 years of Carter kinda eases the education process, right?
October 7th, 2008 at 11:41 pm
Dude. Wake up and smell the bonfires on Wall Street. The Wall Street Republicans are dead, perhaps forever. That was Jay Cost’s analysis anyway. According to Cost in a post on his horse race blog it is precisely our party’s long standing association with the financial services sector that is killing us this cycle.
Read and weep:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/3141428/Germany-takes-hot-seat-as-Europe-falls-into-the-abyss.html
If we still have a party left when this is over it will be because the social conservatives decided to stick around.
But I’m not so sure that any of this matters anymore. Did the candidates seem hollow and detached to you tonight? Even Obama seemed weary and befuddled beneath his smooth exterior. I think everyone knows that history has changed yet they can’t seem to change their scripts. They rehearse their old lines even as the world around them transforms in ways that no one can really appreciate yet.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:41 pm
Also, if McCain doesn’t win, let’s not let the media pick the republican nominee again, okay kids.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:42 pm
P.S. to #160, but he’s had 3 wives and lived with a gay couple for awhile — so he’s not allowed to save us from socialism.
YOU GOD DAMNED SOCONS.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:43 pm
160, Okay next question is McCain an economic conservative.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:43 pm
148- Sarkosy did it.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:43 pm
145,
Why can’t we have a candidate who does both, like say Reagan. I worship at the altar of Reagan as much as the next guy so I feel okay saying this next sentence. He didn’t actually accomplish very much domestically. On the Cold War, he won it and should be revered just for that alone, but he didn’t actually get much through Congress to satisfy social or economic conservatives.
He appointed two judges who upheld Roe, yet social conservatives love Reagan more than any other GOP figure. He also oversaw a large expansion of the size of government and of the federal budget, yet economic conservatives love him. Obviously a liberal Congress prevented him from doing much of what he actually wanted, and the fact that he prevented things from being worse is an accomplishment.
What I am saying is that Reagan won people over by articulately and effectively communicating ideas. That enthused diehards like us who want a leader who advocates our ideas effectively, but most importantly it convinced moderates that our ideas are the right ones which is why he won three landslides (1988 was all Reagan).
There is nothing mutually exclusive about social conservatism and economic conservatism. We don’t need to shed either pillar, we just need a person who can sell both ideas at once.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:44 pm
#165: You know he isn’t.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:45 pm
163, Yes, this time let’s have primaries where everybody can vote and pick the nominee. Oh wait that’s what we did.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:45 pm
#164, it’s funny when the atheist gets religious.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:46 pm
Yes. I was a Rudy guy. I lived in NYC under Rudy’s rule and enjoyed the benefit of his policies. But the primary process taught me a lot about the candidates and a lot about where we stand at the moment as a nation and as a people. I trust the wisdom of the primary voters. Whatever comes of this, McCain was, and perhaps still is, our best shot.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:46 pm
dotan, so the cure to an economic crisis is socialism, is that what you are saying?
October 7th, 2008 at 11:46 pm
164- Why did Rudy do so badly in NH, where there are very few Socons?
October 7th, 2008 at 11:48 pm
#169 …and surprise, surprise, we (really not me) picked the same guy the media backed. As I remember it, that was a big selling point for McCain, then to our (really not mine) shock, the media turned on him.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:49 pm
168, Allright so put your comments together and you think ecconmic conservatism wins every time it’s has a peruasive candidate, but then you say that a candidate that lost big to a non-economic conservative, is such a canidate – certainly you see the inconsistency here.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:49 pm
173. McCain is liked very much by those who voted in the NH primary. However, Giuliani would have been our best Presidential candidate.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:49 pm
#173 In my opinion, Rudy just ran a poor campaign. He did pretty good at the debates, and he’s a good guy, but his campaign was poorly run.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:49 pm
174- We had no good candidates this year. McCain was and still is the best of a bad lot. We need new candidates in 2012.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:49 pm
Poor Rudy wasn’t able to educate his daughter on who to vote for… Remember all, she’s a big Obama supporter.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:50 pm
AC1,
Because he pulled out against a “favorite son” (McCain) and a governor of a neighboring state with a summer home in NH (Romney).
Metro,
While we’re talking about this, let me point out again that Rudy handed this election to McCain by pulling out of NH. McCain’s numbers didn’t start going up until Rudy had already withdrawn. Blame Rudy for this McCain mess.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:51 pm
Again is there anybody out there who thinks Obama lost Florida tonight?
October 7th, 2008 at 11:51 pm
#176 I’ll agree that Giuliani COULD have been our strongest (not necessarily best) candidate, but not running the campaign he did, with the staff he had.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:52 pm
166, “Sarkosy did it”
That’s brilliant! France was fed up. Sarkosy was their “change” candidate. People do insane things when they get fed up… And for France to elect Sarkosy, that is certainly nothing short of “insane”.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:52 pm
Romney would be down by 20 points. McCain may be there himself soon. Romeny would be portrayed as the Wall Street CEO type that Joe Blow hates right now. We may as well have nominated Ken Lay.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:52 pm
It does no good to speculate what COULD have happened though. We’ve got McCain.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:54 pm
183- Sarkosy was from the same party as the unpopular leader before him and he still won. That is the point.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:54 pm
#173/175/177: http://race42008.com/2008/01/30/a-post-mortem/
October 7th, 2008 at 11:54 pm
Dude. You don’t seem to get it. These sorts of binary distinctions may not apply any more. Capitalism, socialism—both are state systems, functions of nation states. An inter-state system, a global credit infrastructure that makes a lot of what states and larger corporations and organizations do possible has just now collapsed. OK., so, I know you’re a little thick, so please try to follow me, but when communities organize communal self-help or mutual aid societies, or begin to hold capital in common because credit opportunities no longer exist and yet people still need to survive, THAT ISN’T SOCIALISM, conversely, when nation states begin to disaggregate their functions and withdraw their services because they can no longer pay for them, THAT ISN’T A TRIUMPH OF CAPITALISM.
We’re in uncharted waters, dude. The next rattle out of the box should come when the treasury department tries to auction off its next round of federal debt AND NO ONE BUYS IT. In other words, no one is going to want to service our national debt anymore. The same credit market that services our banks also services cities, counties, states, and nations, and there is no bigger consumer of credit on the planet than the USA.
Wait for it, dudes. Do you think things are painful now? Wait until the government itself can’t pay its bills.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:55 pm
DaveG, usually I love your honest analysis, but now I think you’re unduly pessimistic. This was the epitome of a clearly tied debate to me. No real zingers with long-winded answers to boot left audiences bored and disappointed with both candidates. Of course, a tie goes in Obama’s favor, so that’s disappointing, but today’s debate was that of two equals.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:55 pm
#184 I don’t know why people would make outlandish statements like that?!?! You trying to turn away people who like Romney (or Romeny)? Why not take the high road and try and build support for our candidate who is losing a significant margin?
October 7th, 2008 at 11:57 pm
Romney, Giuliani and Thompson all would have been smart enough to never let up with Hillary’s attacks on Obama. McCain never attempted to define Obama as an extremist until lately and he hasn’t even called him a socialist. The summer should have been about defining the candidates. McCain sat on his ass for 3 months and let Obama recover from the three previous months of getting beat up by Hillary.
McCain should have spent the summer burning into people’s minds that Obama is a liberal extremist who will raise your taxes, kill the economy, take away your guns, etc.
Instead Obama was allowed to regroup and somehow he is a champion of the middle class and people actually view him as more of a tax cutter than McCain.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:59 pm
190- I am saying any of our candidates were going to lose this year short of a scandal. This is why we need to find a scandal because we have to find a way to win. I like Romney and would have no problem with him as President. I am just being honest in describing how he would be portrayed.
October 7th, 2008 at 11:59 pm
All this talk of parties dying is a bit over the top. By some measures, the Democratic party is the oldest party on earth. And the Republican party is just a few years younger. As much as we all hate the two party system, I think the longevity of the two parties is a testament to the greatness of the country as much as it is a testament to how well the country has been served by the two parties.
October 8th, 2008 at 12:01 am
#191 “McCain never attempted to define Obama as an extremist until lately and he hasn’t even called him a socialist.”
I tend to feel the same way, some disturbing stuff is out on Obama, and it hasn’t been used (at least not effectively). I’m hoping (fingers crossed) that they have some last quarter push planned that will blow people away. I’m hoping it’s a game plan to hold some stuff back till the last week.
we’ll see.
October 8th, 2008 at 12:02 am
“It does no good to speculate what COULD have happened though. We’ve got McCain” Amen. The fact is Rudy, Fred, and Romney couldn’t sell their economic conservatism to those who would be most receptive to it – the Republican primary voters. I don’t know how they would have been anymore effective in a general election. But whatever, the case there’s no way we can know, there’s upsides and downsides to each of the canidates, and their weight is all judged subjectivielly, talking about who would have done better is both unverifiable and pointless.
October 8th, 2008 at 12:04 am
Um, yeah, OK., you’re probably right. Our electoral mechanics (first past the post, non-proportional representation) supports a 2 party system, so certainly something like that will persist. But I think we’re in for a major, major re-alignment within those 2 parties. The Democrat party is already disaggregating from within. Their big problem is unity. Our big problem is our increasing regionalism, a regionalism that maps right onto our coalition fault lines. I think both big problems will be very different very soon.
October 8th, 2008 at 12:04 am
#192 Sure, you can portray people as you like, but that doesn’t mean people will buy it. I’ve seen people who portray McCain as a traitor to our country – doesn’t seem to have stuck, and the 20 points comment is over the top. Nobody has a crystal ball into an alternative future.
October 8th, 2008 at 12:04 am
#195: A majority of Republican primary voters always sided with the economic conservatives (combined) over McCain and Huckabee.
That remained true until Romney was the only EconCon left in the race, and it was his phoniness and flip-flopping that caused voters to know he was unelectable, not his economic conservatism.
Your argument is essentially that the GOP has dropped economic conservatism. If that is so, I will not vote for it.
October 8th, 2008 at 12:05 am
#197: McCain’s been a traitor to economic conservatism, including tonight.
October 8th, 2008 at 12:08 am
holy crap alert! ted stevens is winning in alaska on the new rasmussen poll? i don’t know what to say.
October 8th, 2008 at 12:08 am
#188: Whatever, dotan. Only 2 options exist. People are free to trade with one another, or government interferes.
October 8th, 2008 at 12:09 am
#195 In fairness, McCain had an 8 year head start, and the backing of numerous media publications. Rudy’s campaign made some bad strategic errors, Fred started too late for this time around, and Romney almost won despite practically being a nobody nationally before running, and not getting the support of RINO governors in Florida and California.
October 8th, 2008 at 12:09 am
It’s McCain though…there’s no arguing who won, or who we have.
October 8th, 2008 at 12:11 am
#200 I was SURE Ted Steven’s was guilty. Then I heard about how the prosecution kept back evidence till midnight the day before the trial that practically exonerated him.
October 8th, 2008 at 12:11 am
Think of it this way – McCain has lived to fight another day. His virtue, one we needed this year, is that the man even in the worst of it, when not even his followers have much faith in him (aka us) he has the tenacity to pull things through. Hence we need him, for all his shortcomings, to be our Commander-in-Chief. Having the mettle to win this campaign, to not lose the resolve that has always preserved him, will be his test in these weeks. The McCain we know can and should by all rights win.
If he confidently articulates his vision, overcoming the rattles of campaign pressure and the economy, he can accomplish this.
October 8th, 2008 at 12:11 am
202, i’m sure there’s a mike huckabee missing there somewhere.
October 8th, 2008 at 12:13 am
lets drop this “the media nominated mccain” crap. the right wing hacks in the media made mccain’s time at the hanoi hilton look like a 6 year long massage.
October 8th, 2008 at 12:13 am
#206, Mike wasn’t addressed in what I was responding to, but obviously he did really well. He had a shoe string budget compared to some others, and cleaned up in Iowa and the South. (happy?)
October 8th, 2008 at 12:13 am
Here’s the link to the transcript of tonight’s debate.
October 8th, 2008 at 12:14 am
Anyway, I hope this is the end of the “electable” meme for choosing candidates for president. The Democrats went with Kerry 4 years ago and Republicans repeated their mistake by going with McCain.
I think it’s obvious now that you choose the best candidate, not the one that looks best on paper.
October 8th, 2008 at 12:14 am
It seems to me that it shows a real inability to think objectively laying aside one’s bias’s when they think ( with certainity) that their canidate would have had it easy in a time when Bush has 22% approval rating…
October 8th, 2008 at 12:14 am
Reuters/C-SPAN/Zogby Poll:
Obama 47%, McCain 45%
October 8th, 2008 at 12:15 am
#211: ONCE AGAIN, it’s not about the standing in the polls, it’s about THE ABILITY TO MAKE AN ARGUMENT IN A DEBATE.
October 8th, 2008 at 12:18 am
Of course the liberal media, and other media outlets backing McCain wasn’t the only reason why he won, but it certainly contributed (even McCain would agree to that), and we should question the wisdom of falling behind who the liberal media endorses in the Republican primaries, especially if we lose to Obama.
October 8th, 2008 at 12:18 am
212 is from a 6-minute old rss feed…
October 8th, 2008 at 12:18 am
211, Just because a canidate loses, does not mean they were not the most electable canidate – especially this year for the Republicans.
October 8th, 2008 at 12:18 am
I am really sad for this country right now and also for the state of our party. This blogging makes one thing clear to me: We Republicans have no idea how to handle this campaign and collectively we have no idea why we are in this economic crisis in the first place.
Even though I am very much a social conservative, I did graduate at the top of my class in econmics at one of the best schools in the country. I don’t think anyone cares about that, but I want to stress that Freddie/Fannie are not THE cause of this mess. They are certainly a culprit, but there is one major factor at play that no one is talking about. Palin came closest in her first debate, and it was the highest rated point of the evening!!!!…
The thought? “Never Again” and her actually mentioning taking responsibility by paying off your credit cards. The CNN meter was off the charts on that part of the debate. She didn’t close the sale, but between government debt and family debt, it is true we have created a Keynesian bubble that we need to correct. We avoided the issue for a while by having even more government spending (the Bush stimulous program) and by individuals buying up over priced houses and refinancing their mortgages, but all of these things made the problem worse and it HAS to be dealt with before things can get better long term.
How can McCain win? Change his economic message and be honest with the American people. Tell everyone we all need to sacrifice for the future of this country and we all need to stop spending ourselves into debt by living paycheck to paycheck. McCain should pledge to eleminate the deficit within 2 years and actually start paying off the debt in the back half of his administration. In return, he should ask the American people to decrease their spending as well.
I warn you, this will hurt a lot in the short term (a couple of years), but the impact will soften with free trade as US consumer demand is replaced by foreign demand, actually helping us get back to a trade surplus. This is Classical Economics at its best and it is THE path if we want to continue being the economic growth engine of the world.
October 8th, 2008 at 12:19 am
With McCain, we really do have Bush again. Neither of them can make an intelligible argument.
The public thinks the current leader of the GOP is stupid and illiterate about everything. If McCain somehow got elected, they’d find him stupid and illiterate about economics, the main issue we face.
We can’t afford a doubling down on that.
Much better to let President Obama take the blame for the mess, and let the EconCons in Congress start the Republican Revolution of 2010.
I really think it’s better McCain loses.
October 8th, 2008 at 12:19 am
Obama’s lack of knowledge:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRBLi-Th4lk&feature=related
October 8th, 2008 at 12:22 am
213, There’s more to an election than a debate. Rudy was obviously not as good when it came to the Republican primary. How he would have done in the general is anyone’s guess, but that’s what it is a guess.
October 8th, 2008 at 12:22 am
“I really think it’s better McCain loses”
Think about how much Obama will effect our government in the next 4 years with a liberal congress, and possibly choosing a couple of SC Justices.
October 8th, 2008 at 12:22 am
211:
Easy? No. But McCain’s campaign has been remarkably undynamic. We’re living in 2008 and have a candidate seemingly unable to pivot with the news cycle.
Y’know we’re over two weeks into this financial debacle and if I only had to listen to McCain on the isue I’d think that Republicans really did cause the crisis. He’s been that ineffective at putting up a defense…and we’ve got Barney Frank on video saying that we’d just bail out Fannie/Freddie if they failed. I don’t even think he brought up that he sponsored a regulation bill 2 years ago in the first debate (did he do it this one?).
Meanwhile Obama claims he was active because he sent a letter. A freakin’ LETTER to the president. I can send a letter to the president. He’s a Senator and President Bush would have been happy to work with him to strengthen regulations. Instead he dictated a letter to his secretary.
October 8th, 2008 at 12:23 am
#220 Rudy was cowed by his deviations on social issues. We already know how he does against Democrats, from his two elections, two convention speeches, and how he handles them as a talking head.
October 8th, 2008 at 12:23 am
#222 lol, It was probably from his office, not even him.
October 8th, 2008 at 12:24 am
#221 Wrong argument for me, as I’d like a couple liberal SC Justices.
October 8th, 2008 at 12:25 am
“McCain’s campaign has been remarkably undynamic. We’re living in 2008 and have a candidate seemingly unable to pivot with the news cycle.”
It does seem that way, but I’m hoping they’re holding a lot back for the last week.
October 8th, 2008 at 12:26 am
Rich Lowry nailed it:
October 8th, 2008 at 12:27 am
#225 I don’t think you really would, maybe you’re pro-abortion, but a couple more liberal SC Justices and you can basically say goodbye to the rule of law. Chances are, wherever you live, abortion will always be legal, so do you really want justices that legislate from the bench? You don’t have to answer, just think about it.
October 8th, 2008 at 12:28 am
here here! I hope “Hussein” is on every ballot in the country.
October 8th, 2008 at 12:28 am
#229 – LOL!
October 8th, 2008 at 12:30 am
#228: I’m pro-choice and I believe the 9th and 10th Amendments make it clear that we have the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, meaning privacy and personal freedom.
However I typically support conservative Justices due to Commerce Clause issues.
So I’m ambivalent about SCOTUS appointments.
The only one I’d really like is Alex Kozinski, but that’ll never happen, especially after his porn fiasco.
October 8th, 2008 at 12:35 am
The Obama-Ayers Connection
By Dick Morris
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/10/the_obamaayers_connection.html
October 8th, 2008 at 12:35 am
I gotta go, but I really hope McCain wins this thing. I hope they have some tricks up their sleeves, but I can’t make sense of their campaign strategy, so I’m a little unnerved. I don’t really buy into the idea that loosing now will help us win later, and I hate to imagine what damage Obama would do to the country. Going into the health care industry I really don’t want socialized medicine and I’ve read Obama’s plan (it sucks).
October 8th, 2008 at 12:37 am
Dick Morris has no right to slam Obama’s ties with Ayers. He was cheerleading for Barry the entire primary season.
October 8th, 2008 at 12:37 am
When the subject of Russia came up, McCain missed an opportunity to explain why the growing economic crisis will require a trustworthy Commander-in-Chief (a rare area in which McCain still significantly outpolls Obama), in not discussing the dangerous implications of Russia’s bailout of Iceland.
October 8th, 2008 at 12:43 am
I don’t think McCain won tonight, but I doubt that any other republican candidate would have done better — very possibly worse (and please don’t talk about Palin — she is really a disgrace for our party).
The answers are very simple: Republicans in the main deal with tax cuts, free markets and national security. With the exception of Huckabee — who touched on kitchen table issues (and still does on his show) and who everyone on this post decimated — republicans cannot reach into the hearts and souls of middle-clear Americans, unless it is on social values, traditional issues. They just don’t connect on the economy — period — that’s it.
In 2004, Bush scored on national security. Had the presidential race been in 2002, Bush would have won by six or seven points. But now it is the democrats’ issue, and their time to shine.
I agree with those who suggest we devote our energy to congress — the absolute worst thing for this country is a one-party romp (that’s what killed the republicans under Bush).
But give McCain his due — he had more to say than anyone else could have. Having said that, Obama won hands down.
October 8th, 2008 at 12:48 am
Not even liberal justices make that ridiculous argument.
October 8th, 2008 at 12:54 am
Sigh. Right, dude. So where does the medieval craft guild fit into your strikingly binary analysis? It constrains trade, yet it isn’t a government entity. Or how about the community cooperative or mutual aid society? What about capital held in common? Ownership, trade, production, distribution—these are all social constructs. Hence, there are many, many options, er, I mean, for those of us with intellect or imagination.
But you just stick with your either-or. I wouldn’t want to confuse you with complexity.
October 8th, 2008 at 1:02 am
This would require a very different monetary policy and tax regime, one that favored savings over consumption, capital formation over credit and debt. It would help us to recover our manufacturing base so that we become a net producer of wealth again, and help us reclaim and rebuild our middle class.
In this way the collapse of the global financial infrastructure could be the best thing that ever happened to us.
But would anyone but me vote for so painful a policy? Did you notice how neither candidate could shake themselves free from their campaign boilerplate? Apparently they don’t think that they can wait out the clock, that perhaps the full force of what has happened to us will not manifest itself until after November 4th. They may be right.
October 8th, 2008 at 1:05 am
Look, everyone, I know we disagree about a lot of issues. But at least we can all come together and agree that were Romney our candidate we would really be screwed right about now. We really dodged a bullet! So, hey, at least we have that going for us.
October 8th, 2008 at 1:12 am
#233 – “I hope they have some tricks up their sleeves” … recall what he pulled on Romney the weekend before the FL primary, so he has the track record/willingness to throw something out there; whether he will or not is the question. On second thought, that was against another Republican so it’s probably too much to expect that he’d do the same to a Democrat.
October 8th, 2008 at 1:34 am
dotan 240 I was thinking the exact opposite.
October 8th, 2008 at 1:43 am
241,
Right- McCain really is effective when he’s fighting against Republicans. Trouble is, he doesn’t have any heart for fighting against Democrats.
October 8th, 2008 at 1:51 am
The opposite of Romney voters rejecting Romney? You mean for Romney to have rejected the voters themselves? Well, Romney sort of did that when he insulted their intelligence by never explaining his many policy reversals to anyone’s satisfaction, when he repeatedly lied to their faces about his own record, when he ran viciously negative commercials against his better qualified rivals, when he attempted to bribe MI voters with e.g. US$40 billion dollar bailout, and when he generally behaved badly, debated poorly, brought shame to his party, embarrassment to conservatives, or when he continues to allow his followers to undermine our candidate and our candidate’s VP pick—so you must be quite happy right about now.
I would share your joy but enumerating afresh Romney’s many contributions to the sorry state of the GOP has killed my buzz.
October 8th, 2008 at 2:10 am
Dotan 244 Your description of me and my thoughts do not fit, but thanks for sharing.
October 8th, 2008 at 2:25 am
Dotan if you do not like the state of the GOP take it up with the candidates still standing.
October 8th, 2008 at 2:41 am
Not everyone agrees with you dotan. Get over it.
At the least Romney would go down swinging. McCain’s going down talking about pork.
Yes, and now that McCain can’t run to the media and whine about how unfair Romney’s policy-centric ads were how’s he doing? Obama’s pummelling him on phantom associations with Bush and the media is praising Obama for doing exactly the right thing.
I warned last year that Romney’s ads exposed McCain as vulnerable to attacks if he doesn’t have the media to cover for him, but few listened.
October 8th, 2008 at 2:58 am
“Look, everyone, I know we disagree about a lot of issues. But at least we can all come together and agree that were Romney our candidate we would really be screwed right about now. We really dodged a bullet! So, hey, at least we have that going for us.”
No, obviously we can’t agree on that. But there does seem to be a pretty good consensus that ” if my canidate would have won” we would win against Obama in a landslide, and this nation would enter into a utopia of peace and prosperity.
October 8th, 2008 at 7:06 am
Watching CNN this morning they are saying that Obama won the debate but they have started talking about the race factor now. They are predicting that a lot of those swing states won’t be blue when it comes down to election day. That the Bradley effect will be out full force and it’s the one thing the Obama campe is afraid of.
October 8th, 2008 at 7:24 am
and the Republican Party is in need of a massive overhaul if it ever hopes to be a potent political force in this country again…
…I doubt that…in another eight years, or maybe even four, the Dems will be having their own problems and the fickle electorate will be clamoring for the other party, just like now…it’s the beauty of the two party system, and why it will never change…it’s a self correcting mechanism, denying any one group too much of the pie…
October 8th, 2008 at 7:30 am
The Bradley factor? How about the socialist and inexperience factors?
October 8th, 2008 at 7:39 am
This isn’t just a cheerleading site…
…you know, if there’s one thing that has irked me more than anything else this election cycle, it’s the proliferation of live blogs, and the rigidity of thought that the participants of these blogs wish to impose on others…this forum is one of the better ones, by the way…freepers has gotten way too doctrinaire in its thinking, and recently has adopteed a bunker mentality, brooking no commentary not incendiary 5towards Obama…and a lib site I was on the other day ripped me apart, with the most juvenile of retorts, because I questioned Obama’s experience…sad what debate becomes during election years…I welcome Dave’s commentary, as controversy is what makes the world go round…anyone calling to ban him, use the brain God gave you…
October 8th, 2008 at 7:52 am
Are we prepared to elect an unprepared president at a time when we need someone with experience?…
…I don’t know…why don’t we channel the people who voted Abe Lincoln in and ask them??? He hadn’t operated in any capacity on the federal level for years, but was elected during the worst crisis this country will likely ever face…of course, heonly won because the votes were split four ways, and the Dems were so split over slavery they ran two candidates
October 8th, 2008 at 8:03 am
or we’ll have Obama, Ried, and Pelosi on a socialist rampage starting in January.
…quite frankly, and in the cold harsh light of day, I think we’re already there…unless Obama does something like murder his two children, and then try to blame it on George Bush…while we’re at it, let’s give a shout out to Dubya, who managed to poison the waters so as to make it impossible for any Pubbie to win this election..
October 8th, 2008 at 8:09 am
Rudy or Fred would be decimating Obama…
…sure…if they would’ve bothered to actually run a campaign…
October 8th, 2008 at 8:27 am
I don’t think the average “Joe sixpack” thinks about socialism, he thinks about how things are affecting him right now today. Bush screwed things up so bad that they don’t want to vote for the GOP. When it comes down to GOP or a black man though, many will hold their noses and vote for McCain because it’s the devil they know.
October 8th, 2008 at 10:06 am
Bush the scapegoat, let’s hear the details on how Bush is at fault when Barney Frank, Reid and Pelosi are running wild.
October 8th, 2008 at 2:13 pm
UNDO the LAST BAILOUT I want my money back