H/T: Marc Ambinder
From PEW:
The religious tradition, founded in the United States in 1830, has come under increased public scrutiny in recent years as a result of prominent Mormons in the news, such as Mitt Romney, a 2008 Republican presidential primary candidate and former governor of Massachusetts, and Sen. Harry Reid (D-Nev.), the majority leader in the U.S. Senate, as well as the involvement of the LDS church in political issues, such as the recent debate over gay marriage in California.
A new analysis of the Landscape Survey data reveals that as a group Mormons are among the most devout and conservative religious people in the country.
Keep in mind that GOP identification is very low right now–only 35 percent of the general population identify themselves as Republicans–making the Mormon numbers even higher by comparison. Evangelicals, for instance–a group that has, for the past decade, been counted as an influential Republican voting bloc–identify with the GOP at a 50 percent rate, a full 15 percent lower than Mormons.
The only group that’s more partisan is members of historically black churches, according to Pew, 77 percent of whom identify themselves as Democrats. (Though that’s more of a racial subset of a religious category, than it is a religious category in its own right.)
Perhaps unsurprisingly, Mormons are much more socially conservative than both the general population and other groups: 70 percent say abortion should be illegal in all or most cases, compared to 42 percent of the general population and 35 percent for Evangelicals. 68 percent say homosexuality should be discouraged, rather than accepted–that’s in line with evangelicals (64 percent) and Muslims (61 percent)–hence the LDS church’s involvement in Prop. 8–but lower than the general population, 40 percent of which shares that opinion.
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Kristofer Lorelli can be contacted at lorville@rogers.com, on Facebook and twitter/Kris_Lorelli.
July 27th, 2009 at 10:31 am
Very interesting. I know that Mormons are very big on self reliance. Of course the social issues are at the top, but staying out of debt and avoiding all forms of dependency are what Mormons believe in.
July 27th, 2009 at 10:33 am
#2, I also believe the historical persecution from the Fed. government plays a role in these beliefs…
July 27th, 2009 at 10:37 am
This may be true for several factors. However, when it comes to abortion, Mormons are pretty liberal. Based on his comments, McCain would categorize Mormons as “pro-abortion extremists.” See the official Mormon stance on abortion.
July 27th, 2009 at 10:37 am
So, black protestants are the second most conservative religious group in America? Very interesting.
It is strange how Mormons hold considerable sway over American politics (multiple small states, i.e. Utah, Idaho, etc. all having Mormon senators) considering they are such a tiny segment of our population.
As long as Mormons continue voting GOP, I’ve got no issue with them but if they decide to “revolt” if say Romney doesn’t get the nomination in 2012 then ALL aspects of their religion are fair game in my opinion.
July 27th, 2009 at 10:40 am
Marshall!
What are you smoking? I know a LOT OF MORMONS! I have yet to meet one that isn’t pro-life. I believe that the above statements in the post are pretty much true.
However, one thing was left out. There are more evangelicals in america than there are mormons. So the percentage difference in how conservative each group is….may not mean as much if that group is actually smaller.
July 27th, 2009 at 10:41 am
That statement is incorrect. I would be surprised if any Mormons believe this.
July 27th, 2009 at 10:43 am
Marshall, your blog has so many inaccuracies, I am not sure where to begin…
July 27th, 2009 at 10:47 am
#6 Let me clarify. It IS incorrect. Mormons do NOT believe that abortion should be illegal in ALL cases.
July 27th, 2009 at 10:52 am
8. I think it shows more that mormons do not understand their own religion’s stances and the simple nuances of this question. Most mormons are genuinely surprised when they find out the LDS church is not legally opposed to abortion, think abortion is equal to murder or even that Joseph Smith drank wine.
July 27th, 2009 at 10:53 am
9. I mean that they are surprised to find out the LDS church does not equate abortion as murder.
July 27th, 2009 at 10:56 am
From the lds.org website:
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=63c139b439c98010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____
“Church leaders have said that some exceptional circumstances may justify an abortion, such as when pregnancy is the result of incest or rape, when the life or health of the mother is judged by competent medical authority to be in serious jeopardy, or when the fetus is known by competent medical authority to have severe defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth. But even these circumstances do not automatically justify an abortion. Those who face such circumstances should consider abortion only after consulting with their local Church leaders and receiving a confirmation through earnest prayer.”
But note that the Mormon Church does not seem to take any stance on political positions on abortion, for example, a Harry Reid could personally be against abortion but politically support laws that allow other people to perform it.
July 27th, 2009 at 10:58 am
2. Kris, maybe, but I doubt very much. Provident living is a religious and conservative principle that goes back long before Mormons were persecuted.
Wade, what the heck are you talking about? Mormons supported Romney not for his faith, but because he happened to be the most conservative choice last election. He was winning the conservative vote up until he dropped out. It was not just the Mormons.
Mormons won’t “revolt” if Romney doesn’t win the nomination. They might if Huck does, though. I will. As a Mormon, I will support a lot of different people if Romney doesn’t win, just not Huckster.
Let’s face it. Some people in the GOP still think Romney’s faith is fair game. Too bad. I hope we can move on and marginalize the bigots. Who needs them??? We need them like a hole in the head. We don’t try to appease racists, now do we?
July 27th, 2009 at 10:59 am
#4 Wade – A revolt by the Mormons from the GOP is not likely to happen, even if Huckabee wins the nomination. It did not happen in 2008 as some predicted it might. McCain won by an overwhelming majority in Utah though he may have not been very well liked.
#3 Marshall – Labeling Mormons as “pro-abortion extremists” is just a flat lie.
July 27th, 2009 at 11:00 am
#12, I was responding to the conservative (LDS) view on the role of government and that it has little to do with faith.
July 27th, 2009 at 11:00 am
“As long as Mormons continue voting GOP, I’ve got no issue with them but if they decide to “revolt” if say Romney doesn’t get the nomination in 2012 then ALL aspects of their religion are fair game in my opinion.”
That is a crazy statement!
But by the way, Mormons aren’t going to ‘revolt’ if Romney isn’t chosen, unless the person chosen has specifically decided to make anti-Mormon statements or is hostile to them as a people. George Bush is a good example of someone the Mormons voted for in very large numbers, he wasn’t hostile to them, and he was a genuine conservative. Therefore, he got their support. Mormons are not united by Mitt Romney necessarily either; there are plenty of other people they would happily choose that are not Mormon.
July 27th, 2009 at 11:01 am
Marshall left out the part where the Mormon Chruch puts a great emphasis on adoption of babies unwanted pregancies and has built a huge social service to back it up.
I don’t know what CalState is trying to say, but it’s obvious that Marshall believes that any abortion in any case is murder. The official Mormon position differs with him/her on this, but in no way can Mormon’s be considered to be “pro-abortion extremists”. That’s just laughable.
By the way Marshall, Mormons spend a huge amount of time teaching and encouraging sexual fidelity meaning woopie only between a marriage couple. No woopie for divorced people, no woopie for single people, no woopie for teenagers. And you may not believe it, but many people pull that off quite happily, so one big way Mormons fight abortion is by not creating out of wedlock babies in the first place.
So you can add “anti-woopie extermists” to your monikers for Mormons.
July 27th, 2009 at 11:04 am
Cool. No “woopie”.
I find this fascinating. Hug a Mormon today. You know how I feel about hard core conservatives, can’t have enough of ‘em nowadays.
July 27th, 2009 at 11:08 am
And if Romney isn’t out committing elicit “woopie” that means that unlike Clinton, JFK, Sanford, Spitzer, etc. etc. etc. I am getting more of the “bang” for my tax dollar that I expect, and less of the embarrassing kind we have become conditioned to expect. If he doesn’t take coffee breaks, even better. I learned that union people (and everyone) waste more time on coffee breaks than anything else that affects productivity.
July 27th, 2009 at 11:10 am
Liz…..no smoking breaks either and no Mondays lost to hangovers
July 27th, 2009 at 11:10 am
Members of the LDS church or not conservative because of their Christian faith, they are conservative because of the pioneering, self-reliance history. It is cultural.
July 27th, 2009 at 11:13 am
What a bunch of strange comments.
Wade: So if Mormons “revolt” (undefined) “ALL aspects of their religion are fair game in my opinion”?? Meaning if Mormons don’t vote the way you want that somehow means their religion will be attacked?? You must be a Huckabee supporter. Why on earth would you attack some-one’s religion because of how they vote?? You Hucksters are unreal.
Also, nothing really strange about their representation given our representative democracy. Other groups wield FAR more influence compared to their population. The LDS apparently are now similar in size to the Jewish vote which seems to have far greater representation and influence. One might even be able to make a case that Catholics, despite how sizable their numbers are, are still over-represented in many government bodies–the supreme court for example.
Calstate: You must be smoking the green stuff. The data comes out and you make the ignorant statement–based upon nothing–that the data regarding Mormon belief on abortion is incorrect. Too funny. The data, of course, is completely correct. The data says that 70% of Mormons believe that abortion should be illegal in all OR most cases. It does not say 70% of Mormons believe abortion should be illegal in all cases. That simply tracts the way abortion polls are often phrased.
The data concerns what Mormons believe–not what the official position is. That data also coincides precisely with my experience. Most Mormon women would not even consider having an abortion except in the most extreme circumstance. Nothing unusual or incorrect in the data at all.
July 27th, 2009 at 11:15 am
#20 Kristofer…..As a Left Coast Mormon convert with no ties to Mormon pioneers or Utah sagebrush I’m going to have to disagree a little with you on this.
The LDS Church is real big on teaching self-reliance, frugality, liberty, and the blessings of the US Constitution in the here and now.
While the pioneer hertiage is a role model, the driving force is the doctrine that teaches these things.
July 27th, 2009 at 11:15 am
I have been reading John Krakauer’s book, Under the Banner of Heaven, and it has given me much insight into The Mormon faith tradition and its various sects. If Mitt is the nominee, he needs to play up his Mormon heritage (as well as his Mexican heritage for the Hispanic vote) this time around because Americans love firsts and the first Mormon President would be an amazing chapter for a denomination that has been maligned and persecuted in the U.S. Mitt could really help spearhead a new age of ecumenicalism and fellowship between traditional Protestant, Catholic and Mormon faiths in the United States.
July 27th, 2009 at 11:18 am
#22, I am not disagreeing with you…I was just trying to explain what influenced the doctrine.
The RCC remains a hierarchical institution, based on the originating concept developed by the Holy Roman Empire.
July 27th, 2009 at 11:19 am
#23, I HOPE NOT! That should not be his role.
July 27th, 2009 at 11:22 am
#23….Word to the Wise….Just remember while reading it that Krakauer’s book is fiction and like most entertainment has only weak links to reality.
I we elect Romney, I hope we do it because he is our best option and not because he’d be the first Mormon.
I’ll pass on a whole line of mediocre Mormons to get a really good conservative non-Mormon for President.
July 27th, 2009 at 11:28 am
#25, I understand. As Martha said though, the doctrine came before the relocation to Utah.
But kudos to you even knowning about that part of Mormon history.
July 27th, 2009 at 11:32 am
Yes, and the pioneering spirit came long before Utah.
July 27th, 2009 at 11:34 am
Umm… You realize that Mitt’s dad was only born in Mexico because his parents were missionaries, right? I hope you understand that Mitt isn’t actually of Mexican descent.
July 27th, 2009 at 11:34 am
This country has a dark past of genocide; Native Americans, Mormons, Hawaiians, etc…
July 27th, 2009 at 11:36 am
#29 – true and even more interesting is the possibility of LDS church members leaving Mexico because they are being targeted by the drug cartels.
July 27th, 2009 at 11:38 am
http://www.statesman.com/news/content/news/stories/world/2009/07/26/0726mexicomormons.html
July 27th, 2009 at 11:39 am
#21 Bags
July 27th, 2009 at 11:54 am
It does not surprise me that Black Protestants and Muslims are farthest from me on this spectrum (lower right) and that unaffiliated are closest, and that nobody religious is anywhere near me.
July 27th, 2009 at 11:55 am
New Gallup Poll Reveals Dissatisfaction With Fed
http://www.rttnews.com/Content/Policy.aspx?Id=1017044
July 27th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
I’d have liked to see the study draw more conclusions between inner-mountain west Mormons (Utah/Idaho/Arizona) and other Mormons. I think there would be quite a difference in the social politics.
I was floored to find out that Church leaders actually had to explain that it’s ok to be a Democrat and a Mormon. But my bro-in-law, a Utah Mormon, says that it’s a really common belief there.
July 27th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
31, 32. Kris, the story you linked was not about Mormons. It was about a group of polygamists as far as I could tell. They are not LDS, and you know that.
Care to explain?
July 27th, 2009 at 12:15 pm
36. You are right. I think when you have a really liberal part of the country, you tend to get more liberal Mormons. That is my experience.
July 27th, 2009 at 12:19 pm
“I’d have liked to see the study draw more conclusions between inner-mountain west Mormons (Utah/Idaho/Arizona) and other Mormons. I think there would be quite a difference in the social politics.” I cannot speak for other religions, but the politics of Catholics depend in part what region of the country they live in.
July 27th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
#32 Kristofer, it’s not your fault I guess. Leave it up to the Washington Post not to know the difference between Mormons and some neo-polygamist group.
The writer probably still thinks the calvary is fighting the Indian Wars out West.
July 27th, 2009 at 12:25 pm
#39:
Precisely. We Catholics here in the South are much more conservative than our fellows in Massachusetts or the rest of the Northeast. After all, both Jeb Bush and Joe Biden call themselves Catholics.
July 27th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
Martha, the article calls them Mormons. Sloppy reporting on the part of the writer.
July 27th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
#3
What an inaccurate explanation if I have ever heard one. Even your explanation doesn’t make Mormons “Abortion Extremists!” You have an agenda which should be pretty obvious to everyone reading. Here are the facts that this article you posted doesn’t detail:
From the church website: “In today’s society, abortion has become a common practice, defended by deceptive arguments. If you face questions about this matter, you can be secure in following the revealed will of the Lord. Latter-day prophets have denounced abortion, referring to the Lord’s declaration, “Thou shalt not … kill, nor do anything like unto it” (D&C 59:6). Their counsel on the matter is clear: Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints must not submit to, perform, encourage, pay for, or arrange for an abortion. If you encourage an abortion in any way, you may be subject to Church discipline.
Church leaders have said that some exceptional circumstances may justify an abortion, such as when pregnancy is the result of incest or rape, when the life or health of the mother is judged by competent medical authority to be in serious jeopardy, or when the fetus is known by competent medical authority to have severe defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth. But even these circumstances do not automatically justify an abortion. Those who face such circumstances should consider abortion only after consulting with their local Church leaders and receiving a confirmation through earnest prayer.
When a child is conceived out of wedlock, the best option is for the mother and father of the child to marry and work toward establishing an eternal family relationship. If a successful marriage is unlikely, they should place the child for adoption, preferably through LDS Family Services (see “Adoption,” pages 7–8). ”
Note the possible exceptions:
1. The the pregnancy is the result of incest or rape
2. The life or health of the mother is judged by competent medical authority to be in serious jeopardy
3. the fetus is known by competent medical authority to have severe defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth
And then there is this statement:
“But even these circumstances do not automatically justify an abortion. Those who face such circumstances should consider abortion only after consulting with their local Church leaders and receiving a confirmation through earnest prayer.”
These are only possible exceptions. Then the church says this: “When a child is conceived out of wedlock, the best option is for the mother and father of the child to marry and work toward establishing an eternal family relationship. If a successful marriage is unlikely, they should place the child for adoption”
There is no “pro-abortion extremism” portrayed in these comments!
July 27th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
42, yes, but if Kris read the article he linked, he would not have said that LDS church members are being targeted in comment 31.
July 27th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
#10-Jason
I don’t think you want to understand. Did you not read the first statement on abortion from the church “thou shalt not murder nor do anything like unto it”?
July 27th, 2009 at 12:51 pm
#11 “Harry Reid could personally be against abortion but politically support laws that allow other people to perform it.”
Harry Reid does not represent the LDS church anymore than I do. As far as I am concerned, Harry Reid does not live his religion.
July 27th, 2009 at 12:58 pm
#44, the news story I watched the other night suggested that they no longer practiced polygamy. They had goven that up decades ago.
Is that not true?
July 27th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
Kristofer,
Latter Day Saints believe in conservative principles because we believe in following the teachings of Jesus Christ, plain simple.
July 27th, 2009 at 1:02 pm
#48, Jesus Christ was not a conservative.
July 27th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
“#48, Jesus Christ was not a conservative.” BINGO, while HE may have had some Conservative principles, HE was apolitical. In some respects, HE was liberal because HE challenged the status quo of the day.
July 27th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
Obviously just my opinion, but from my experience, the mormons I know, it is their tolerance level that is affected depending on their region where they live. I don’t know any mormons personally that believe in abortion, but I do know mormons that live in Oregon that are against abortion, but are tolerant of another woman to choose. Meaning, their tolerance level for others rights allows them to say “I am against it, but I am not going to dictate another’s belief”.
July 27th, 2009 at 1:08 pm
47. I don’t know anything other than what you linked to, and it did not say they had given up polygamy, and it did not say they were LDS.
July 27th, 2009 at 1:08 pm
#48
You do realize how very debatable that is don’t you?
July 27th, 2009 at 1:08 pm
45. Havr you ever considered how a church handles a someone who has murdered and then compared it to a person who has had an abortion. I A scripture quoted at the top that has an “anything like unto it” clause is hardly an argument the church considerd abortion on the same level as shooting someone in a bank robbery.
Kris, thanks for posting this and the kind words for mormons. But, I would have to disagree on mormon heritage equaling conservatism. Mormon heritage is probably more closely aligned with radical liberalism. For instance read Joseph Smith’s political plaform from his failed presidential run or any of his writings: he argued for a national bank, the release of prisoners and AWOL soldiers, black sufferage with reparations, pacifism, communalism and collectivism. It wasn’t until after WWII with Benson, Mark Peterson and others that the LDS church membership took a turn on politics. Even then, several prominent church leaders have democrats and can make a strong argument (although one I disagree with) that the LDS church’s teaching lean more towards a DNC world view. For instance, Spencer W. Kimballs sermons would generally make great talking points for a Dem momrons, and they often do, as do Joseph Smith’s, Orson Pratt’s etc.
Polls like this scare me as a mormon and conservative, the claim that your political ideals have the stamp of approval of Jesus is one a lot of conservative and liberal momrmons make, and it’s pretty unworthy notion.
If anything the LDS Church (not membership) is politically savvy, not politically conservative. They are nuetral except on some core issues that deal directly with the Church’s doctrinal emphasis.
July 27th, 2009 at 1:08 pm
Who does? We are all hypocrites to some degree.
I don’t know if Reid goes out and actively holds up signs and yells pro-choice slogans across the street from pro-life activists. He most likely just finds more policies he agrees with in the Democratic party than he does in the Republican party.
July 27th, 2009 at 1:10 pm
54. Sorry for all the typos.
July 27th, 2009 at 1:12 pm
#50
You don’t have to be political to be conservative. Christ is conservative on social issues, as well as self reliance, but there are aspects. Christ was about self reliance. I could go on but then this will become religious.
July 27th, 2009 at 1:14 pm
Harry Reid does not live his religion
I don’t now who said this here, but give me a break. Reid is an active mormon with a lifetime of service to the LDS church, and someone whom the church relies on for help with the government when needed. Mormons should be grateful we have a mormon in such a place, and should stop knocking the guy on religious bounds. My wife’s family is personal friends with him, some of her cousins (who I am close to) have roomed in college with his kids and despite political differences will tell you he is a fantastic person with a strong love for the Gospel.
Stop mixing your religous with politics, it’s really not a good move.
July 27th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
#54 ““anything like unto it” clause is hardly an argument the church considerd abortion on the same level as shooting someone in a bank robbery.”
That is because ALL cases of abortion are NOT murder. That is extremism my friend.
July 27th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
57. Christ was about self reliance? Doubt it. Generally the NT writers and Christ himself were about love, sharing and community. I don’t know where you get the self reliance, ask for no help schtick.
July 27th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
#54 “If anything the LDS Church (not membership) is politically savvy, not politically conservative. They are nuetral except on some core issues that deal directly with the Church’s doctrinal emphasis.”
I suppose I should ignore the poll Kris posted and take your comments as “proper and accurate polling”?
July 27th, 2009 at 1:18 pm
59. Head in the sand.
Can a person who has had an abortion be baptized into the church? In every instance yes after talks with a Stake PResident or Mission President.
Can a person who has murdered someone be baptized into the church? In nearly every instance no, without and extreme circumstance and OK from the first presidency?
Equal? Not in anyway.
July 27th, 2009 at 1:18 pm
There are lots of drivers for why Mormons align as they do, both theological, cultural, and historical.
1. Mormons in the mountain west are by a large majority Republican. Part of that goes back to seeking redress from the American Govt. in the 1830’s and 40’s. The democrat Van Buren responded to their petition, “Your cause is just but I can do nothing for you.” There are similarities here to southern democrats’ and the South’s reaction to post Civil War Republican Reconstuctionists. There have been periods in Mormon history where the adherents were assigned a political party in order to preserve the benefits of a two-party system.
2. The reality of life on the frontier, which boundary moved west during the 1800’s, makes self-reliance a necessity. The frontier didn’t provide enough excess for slackers. This existential reality found support in the theology as well for Mormons. But so did charity, where Mormons experimented with a unique communal system as early as 1831 and continued various means of extending help to the less-fortunate until today. The LDS church runs what some estimate as the largest non-governmental welfare system in the world. It has received some considerable attention in recent months, the level of its use actually being called an early economic indicator of systemic economic distress. Its separate investigation would be interesting to you on several levels.
3. In addition to self-reliance, no other driver is more influential in Mormon party affiliation than social issues (abortion, marriage, education). Adherents are not monolithic, but are more closely aligned with conservative principles. The church does not focus on the theological issue of ensoulment in its public statement. (If I were trying to explain its statement to others, I would say that abortion, in different situations, may be seen “like unto murder”, manslaughter, justifiable homicide/self-defense (as in a soldier killing another soldier). Participation in an abortion, either as the pregnant mother, or as a supportive father, can bring church discipline, including excommunication, or disqualification to serve in what other faiths consider clerical (clergy) roles. Regardless of the counsel and judgment of the church, the individual is accountable to God for their actions.
4. The Mormon church becomes marginally less conservative as it moves away from SLC and the Rocky Mountains. In the ’60’s, George Romney was seen as quite liberal by LDS/UT standards, but quite normal by LDS/Michigan standards. Though I don’t have any personal perspective, I see Mitt as more conservative than his father on most social issues and moving more conservative over time. In that, he is moving closer to the middle of the LDS church and the GOP. Wherever they live, it is expected that they adhere to orthodox core beliefs, but how those beliefs may be carried out could vary widely. Since more than half of the LDS church today exists outside the US, the church is coming to differentiate what parts are theology and what parts are Rocky Mountain Pioneer culture. As a conservative organism, this is happening slowly. As a Christian organism, it is happening with joy and newness.
5. Most of the LDS church membership (not all) don’t get Harry Reid. Because they are not political, they don’t get the distinction between being personally against abortion (or gay marriage) but accepting someone else’s right to practice it. In that, we could say that Harry’s religious affiliation is trumped by his political affiliation for Mormon’s voting in NV. Contrast that with Romney, and his religious affiliation and political affiliation amplify each other for Mormon voters. Like all of us, they transfer their own values onto him, assuming that their version of each of those affiliations is just like his. This is what identity politics is all about. But it is how we decide if someone can be “trusted” to vote like we would. And it is why the charge of “not trustworthy” bothers Romney supporters so much. It is probably a lot of identity and anti-identity politics on both sides.
Thanks, Kristopher. I appreciated the opportunity to share.
July 27th, 2009 at 1:19 pm
61. Is this a poll of Church leadership?
July 27th, 2009 at 1:21 pm
#60 Liber Jason,
Are you saying that conservatives are NOT for community? Conservatism is all about serving others and helping others succeed. Conservatism is not about ignoring the downtrodding(that’s what the left would have people think) it is all about helping the downtrodden by helping them learn how to fish, not give them handouts.
You said “Generally the NT writers and Christ himself were about love, sharing and community” as if conservatives are NOT that!
July 27th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
#62
I agree, what are you getting at?
July 27th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
Jason Said. “
I could not have said it better!
July 27th, 2009 at 1:28 pm
55 – Harry Reid is pro-life.
July 27th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
Dang Right!
July 27th, 2009 at 1:33 pm
#67, #60
So are we as Christians(those of use who are) not living Christianity cause we are conservatives? If Christ taught liberalism, then shouldn’t we be liberals if He is the perfect example?
July 27th, 2009 at 1:35 pm
70 – I don’t recall Christ being in favor of government involvement in regards to a welfare state. I believe he preached personally giving to the poor. Correct me if I’m wrong though, I’m not some Biblical scholar.
July 27th, 2009 at 1:38 pm
CC,
Don’t turn this into an apologetics discussion. Take that to another discussion board.
There is plenty to discuss here from a sociological, historical, and political perspective. It doesn’t need theology, too.
July 27th, 2009 at 1:42 pm
Nothing personal, but why is anyone even discussing the principles that might make Christ conservative? The cry is to keep religion out of politics and the last thing conservatives need is even more “linkage” of being a “religious” party. That is no way to get moderates and independants that they need.
July 27th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
#70 One reason I am not a Christian is that Christianity clearly demands socialism. The Popes have generally gotten this right.
One you have no right to exist for your own sake and are your brother’s keeper, you cannot escape collectivism as a logical result.
July 27th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
#71
You are exactly right. I am trying to figure out where the heck Jason and Kristoffer are getting their understanding of who Christ was and what he taught. He was for giving to the poor, but not against government taking your money and giving it to the poor.
This would defeat the plan of salvation as the plan is worthless without agency. Christ would not be for government because government tends to take away our agency(freedom to choose)which is not in plan. We are here to grow by making our own decisions. By learning how to discern between good and evil and to choose the good. This is what Christ taught.
This is not liberalism.
July 27th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
This is obviously difficult for me to argue, as I am not LDS, but my assumptions are not based on the scriptures, but more so on ‘cultural’ traditions.
As far as living and promoting economic liberty, many LDS members have a tradition that is not that different than that of our founding fathers. It has little to do with faith and more so to do with tradition. Just as many of our original settlers fled the economic and religious tyranny of European monarchies, the original LDS members did the same in the 1800’s.
We find these same traditions through out the west, especially in Texas and Alaska. The difference for LDS members was that self-sustainment (non-reliance on government) was not just a choice, but also a necessity for their survival.
July 27th, 2009 at 1:49 pm
#74
But no one is forcing you to do that. My church does not force me to be my brother’s keeper. I wouldn’t belong to it if it did! The way I see it, is that I am robbing myself of growth opportunities if I don’t. I am my own judge and whatever I do, i do it to myself.
It’s that simple.
July 27th, 2009 at 1:49 pm
Metro,
no, there is a major difference between being forced to help you neighbor (socialism) and choosing to help your neighbor (Christianity).
July 27th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
I’ve enjoyed reading the vast majority of these posting, with the exception of Marshall of course, which I”m sure is a Huckabee supporter. I just wanted to put my two cents in regarding the 70% figure regarding abortion
As has been noted, several have said they have never known a Mormon who was pro-choice. That’s probably true. I’ve only known one in 32 years in the church, and he was borderline. The reason the 70% figure is not even considerably higher is because when a pollster calls up and someone identifies themselves as Mormon, that does not mean they are actively engaged in the church. They may very well be ‘less active’, or completely inactive, but still willing to identify themselves as LDS. In those cases, they would contribute heavily toward the 30%, just as they may very well also smoke, or drink coffee, or drink alcohol, or have sex outside of marriage, etc. In other words, what I”m saying is if they had only polled ‘active’ Mormons, I think you would see a figure more like 97% regarding the abortion numbers.
July 27th, 2009 at 1:53 pm
The problem some Mormons have with Harry Reid is based less on ideology and more on personal character problems. When they say he does not live his religion, they are talking a general lack of ethics, integrity, etc. in his public life. The man lies all the time, has a history of shady activities, and a general shabbiness in the way he conducts himself as Senate Majority leader.
July 27th, 2009 at 1:54 pm
#78
Right. So are you saying that because Christ doesn’t force people to help your neighbor that he is NOT liberal socialist?
I don’t care to talk about religion, but Kristoffer and Jason are trying to tell me that my ultimate example is a liberal socialist, when this whole time I have been conservative because of His teachings!
I have been really amazed though at how people have seen Jesus’ teaching as both. Maybe it has more to do with the fact that “we don’t see things as they are, we see things as we are?”
July 27th, 2009 at 1:55 pm
Metro,
As a former Catholic, I do not recall any writings that supported radical environmentalism…although the current Pope seems to think so.
July 27th, 2009 at 1:55 pm
#80
Yes Martha, he does. He is corrupt.
July 27th, 2009 at 1:57 pm
Might I add, that the reason Mormons will not leave the GOP, even if Huckabee is nominated, is because they believe it is far more in alignmnent with their beliefs than the left is. Same with Evangelicals. They are not leftists because of their beliefs, right?
July 27th, 2009 at 2:08 pm
Christ did not advocate governmental collectivism. He did say render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and unto God what is God’s.
Spencer W. Kimball did not advocate it either. For many decades the LDS Church leaders have spoken out strongly against taking government welfare. Kimball did advocate Church Welfare programs as well as self reliance.
July 27th, 2009 at 2:15 pm
“although the current Pope seems to think so.” Please enlighten us where the Pope said he wanted Cap & Trade.
July 27th, 2009 at 2:16 pm
Yes, there is a difference between being forced to help the poor and choosing to help the poor.
But Christianity doesn’t uphold your CHOICE to give to the poor, it upholds your DUTY to give to the poor.
It’s a small step to have a body step in and enforce that DUTY.
Morality determines politics.
If you’ve accepted a morality of collectivism, then the politics of collectivism will usually follow.
In fact, it’s the influence of the Christian morality among the American public that ended our original laissez-faire capitalist system.
July 27th, 2009 at 2:20 pm
http://www.northjersey.com/community/religion/___Liberals_find_a_surprising_ally_in_Pope_Benedict.html
July 27th, 2009 at 3:01 pm
Kris,
I would say you are partly right. Mormons are in some aspects the way they are because of history, culture etc. But we are also the way we are because of the teachings that we live by today, including self-reliance, etc.
Mormons also have a tendency to vote with high percentages. We are encouraged to vote, though the church does remain politically neutral except for cases such as Prop 8 that directly affect the church’s teachings.
July 27th, 2009 at 3:11 pm
Just some other tidbit information I found interesting if not comical.
Princeton Review each year gives rankings to all the Universities in the country.
Current Rankings for BYU (LDS owned University in Provo, Utah)
Most Conservative Students- #4
Future Rotarians and Daughters of the American Revolution- #1
Most Religious Students- #2
Alternative Lifestyles Not A Lifestyle- #7
In years past they have been like #5 for “Most nostalgic for Ronald Reagan”, etc.
July 27th, 2009 at 3:25 pm
The Christians ——-http://www.freestrongamerica.com/
July 27th, 2009 at 3:37 pm
I also Mormons tend to be pragmatists, even moreso, perhaps, than members of other, similar religions. Mormons have long had to rely on real consequences and data to justify themselves, not only doctrinally, but socially. There isn’t the luxury of just standing on the Bible for support, when people of all faiths have attacked the religion from just about every angle they could. Mormons are well versed in the “whys” and “hows” of their religion, and carry over this pragmatism to their politics. Thus, the affinity for someone like Romney, who is not only Mormon, but your quintessential pragmatist.
July 27th, 2009 at 3:57 pm
anonymous, you never cease to amaze with your brilliant commentary.
July 27th, 2009 at 4:13 pm
91 – You need to make up your mind on whether he lost because he was a “liberal Democrat” or because he was Mormon.
July 27th, 2009 at 4:18 pm
I keep hoping anonymous will forget to take his/her stupid pill some morning and say something half way intelligent, but my hopes are in vain. Go Mitt!!!
July 27th, 2009 at 4:31 pm
Anyone familiar with Christianity is aware the Bible doesn’t fit neatly into economically liberal or conservative ideologies.
Servants are exhorted to obey their employers and to work hard even if they’re not rewarded well. That is a position generally consisted with the laissez faire of view of libertarians.
Meanwhile some Churches (Jerusalem) practiced voluntary socialism while some (Rome) had a wealthy elite that ran the show.
Christianity militates against vanity which does make it resistant to ideologies that promote hubris or selfishness.
July 27th, 2009 at 4:40 pm
Well stated, Doug. It’s one of my pet peeves when people mingle religion and politics. Religion is about the individual. Politics is about governing a pluralistic society. HUGE difference.
July 27th, 2009 at 4:49 pm
Someone should post on the new Fox News Poll out today showing Mitt in the lead: http://thecompetentconservative.com/2009/07/27/fox-news-poll-republicans-prefer-mitt-romney-as-their-nominee-in-2012/
July 27th, 2009 at 4:51 pm
#96
That’s true. Neither side is perfect in alignment with those teachings.
July 27th, 2009 at 5:00 pm
#96
“Christianity militates against vanity which does make it resistant to ideologies that promote hubris or selfishness.”
True Christianity doesn’t “militate”. There are militant Evangelicals who would want a “man of God” in the White house while you and I just want him to be right on the issues.
True Christianity wholeheartedly understand and allows people to excersize individual AGENCY. People cannot grow, and cannot become without using their agency in making their own decisions. This is what Christianity is all about.
If Christian churches or Christian individuals have a militant paradigm, then they are not understanding true Christian doctrine. If Christ was one to “militate” someone into obeying His law, then he would not have suffered, voluntarily, for the sins of mankind. He would have just forced us to do what was right. But that is not conducive to individual development, which is why we are here! So, if we make the wrong choices, we make them ourselves.
July 27th, 2009 at 5:02 pm
#98, never mind, just saw it posted on Race.
July 27th, 2009 at 6:34 pm
#100 It sounds like you’re pushing LDS theology to me.
July 27th, 2009 at 7:21 pm
We just celbrated Pioneer Day here in Utah. 24th of July, when the Saints entered the Valley. Several of my ancestors, amoung them.
July 27th, 2009 at 7:21 pm
Competent,
You should read my comments more carefully, I said Christ wasn’t a conservative, I said nothing toward him being a socialist. Christ is above the whole political debate, I have no idea why you would want to lower him to the level of today’s politicians and the Heritage foundation. I did say Joseph Smith would be a radical liberal by today’s standards (and yours).
Metro,
I have no idea of how you could argue against any collectivism. Unless you live on a mountain top, you yourself partake in collectivism, kind of the point of any community.
July 27th, 2009 at 7:29 pm
Jason. We all know Joseph Smith drank wine. He also chewed tabacco. But then, it all stopped with what we call the Word of Wisdom.
Is the church against abortion? Of course they are. Are they wanting to make laws and influence laws to make it illegal? No. the ‘Church’ does not get involved in politics. what about Prop 8? The ‘Church’ was not involved. The members were. We are encouraged to be active in our communities. Prop 8 is an excellent example of how we activated in large numbers.
July 27th, 2009 at 7:31 pm
Jerald. I’ve adopted 7 so far.
July 27th, 2009 at 7:34 pm
Jerald 20. Thanks for confirming the 40 quarts of sweet pickles I put up this weekend were not in vain! Go Pioneers!
July 27th, 2009 at 7:36 pm
Jason58. many would be surprised about how many mormons are in the house and senate. And not all are from Utah!
July 27th, 2009 at 8:09 pm
105. Joseph Smith did not stop drinking with the Word of Wisdom. The Word of Wisdom wasn’t really anything codified until the 1920’s.
July 27th, 2009 at 8:12 pm
Jason you’re a Roe vs. Wade supporter right?
July 27th, 2009 at 8:17 pm
I support abortion rights? I am a moderate “no” on that.
July 27th, 2009 at 8:20 pm
100. Doug, I’ve noticed you are a little paranoid of Mormonism. Chill.
July 27th, 2009 at 9:40 pm
#112 The only Mormon I’ve known in my personal life was my Chemistry teacher in High School. I grew up where there was one small Mormon Church in a large area of 500,000 people.
I’m still friends with that retired Chemistry teacher (who taught my father also). He’s sent some newborn clothes for my daughter in the last few months.
Until I met Mormons on here during the primary I’d had no interest in the religion and honestly knew nearly nothing about it. On here I’ve encountered a pushiness and defensiveness that has perhaps shaded my views in a negative light.
I don’t think I’m paranoid about Mormonism though. Outside of this blog I’d have never thought of the religion.
July 27th, 2009 at 10:19 pm
We are not choosing a church leader,we are choosing a president,this country welcome every religion,because this is the #1 prosperity country in the world,here is America,is not Laos,is not Cuba,is not Burma and other,what church do you go,you need some thing to eat before you go,no one can live without food,so just look at who can turn around the economy at this time and so all American people will be happy again,he is the man that America are waiting for,is not the time to fight for you or for him, and for me,is time to rally for our real leader Mitt and take back America from the change we never believe in Kenya system to our founding father system.
July 27th, 2009 at 10:43 pm
113. Well, on here you seem paranoid to me. Several of your comments have been bordering on bigotry. Just last week – remember? You basically told Romney to lie about his faith if he wanted your vote. You’re just not going to take him daring to admit that he’s a Christian.
July 27th, 2009 at 11:13 pm
#115 Martha I assume you didn’t understand me.
Martha I don’t condone lying and you know that. Romney can call all of us Gentiles if he wishes. However I think if he ran as a vocal fighter for Mormonism it would cost him votes.
I’d prefer Romney keep his current path and not offend people by intruding into religious issues.
July 27th, 2009 at 11:25 pm
Doug, we can refight the whole thing, but the truth is that you insisted that Romney introduced religion into the election, when the truth was that Huck forced Romney to deal with it. And when he did he had the unmitigated nerve to say exactly what he is – which is a Christian. That doens’t sit well with some people, including you, I guess.
You also said that you prefer he not mention that he is Christian because it will offend voters. SO in essence, you want him to lie about his faith. He would have to be dishonest to pretend that he’s not Christian.
Why does it make you so uncomfortable to hear that Mormons are Christian?
BTW – When in the heck did Romney call you gentiles??? Now you’re getting silly.
And why in the world would Romney run as a vocal fighter for Mormonism??? Doug, you’re not making any sense.
July 27th, 2009 at 11:33 pm
Doug, if I have misunderstood you, I apologize. It just seems that you are a little too concerned about Romney’s Mormonism.
And it just makes me curious about how you could support Huckabee. He’s the one who made his whole campaign about religion. Hes the one who used my religion as a wedge issue. Most people see him as a religion-baiter – everyone but his supporters.
And, his supporters were by and large anti-Mormon. He allowed the most vicious, hateful rhetoric against Mormons to stand on his website without objection.
If you don’t want religion interjected into politics, why did you support him?
July 27th, 2009 at 11:37 pm
#117 The religion practiced by Catholics, Protestants and the Orthodox is not the same religion as Mormonism. They don’t believe in the Mormon deities. If Mormonism is Christianity than Protestantism, Catholicism and Orthodoxy are not.
That’s clear since Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox worship the Trinity and Mormons worship a different God.
Romney can call himself a Christian but that is slap in the face to those of us who call ourselves Christian and don’t believe in the Mormon deities.
July 27th, 2009 at 11:42 pm
Don’t make this a religious debate people. Mitt would be “pleased as punch” I’m sure if he didn’t have to deal with questions of his religion. He has made it clear before that religion is a deeply personal issue and he doesn’t want to push any of those deeply personal views on anyone. Don’t you people push his or your religious views on anyone either.
July 27th, 2009 at 11:44 pm
119 – That is because you’ve perverted the definition of “Christianity.” If you define it your way, then you’re right: Mormons aren’t Christians. But if you define “Christianity” as the belief system which worships and holds at its center Jesus Christ and his teachings, then there is no doubting that Mormons are Christians.
July 27th, 2009 at 11:51 pm
#120 I’m glad Romney has committed to that.
Bwett, Catholics/Protestants/Orthodox worship a different God than Mormons. They don’t even agree on who Christ is. The Mormon Jesus is significantly different than the one Catholics/Protestants/Orthodox believe in.
If Mormonism is Christianity than Catholicism/Protestantism/Orthodoxy are not Christian as they worship a different Jesus and an entirely different God.
July 28th, 2009 at 12:33 am
122.
You just sound like a guy who feels better about himself by putting limits on who others worship. I thought you were smarter and more logical than this after a couple years of talking with your on this site. You may be steeped in the creeds, but unfortunately you missed the prime messages of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, at least according to your comments here.
July 28th, 2009 at 1:52 am
Doug, I guess my original thought was right: you are somewhat paranoid about Mormonism.
You continue to reveal yourself to be a typical Huckabee supporter.
Doug, sorry to disappoint – I am Mormon, and Christian. As far as I know, you are not the arbiter of who is allowed to call themselves Christian or not. I would not presume to call your faith into question. Please don’t worry about mine.
If you don’t want religion entering into politics, why did you support Huckabee?
July 28th, 2009 at 9:23 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM3mlgLAlMs&feature=player_embedded
July 28th, 2009 at 9:28 am
I am Mormon. I AM Chistian. See this video, if you don’t think we Mormons believe in Christ as our Savior.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM3mlgLAlMs&feature=player_embedded
July 28th, 2009 at 9:34 am
the church Romney belongs to.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bnhU1bh_RM
July 28th, 2009 at 9:56 am
Michael, his grand parents were not missionary’s there. They were living there. They had farms and a community of other LDS. Mitt still has family in Mexico. (in fact, one ‘cousin’ was kidnapped a few months back, then returned). Is Mitt considered ‘hispanic’? Could be. But most likely not. We tend to picture hispaic’s as dark skinned folks with dark hair and eyes. When in fact, most hispanics in this world are not. My own husband is Hispanic. He’s a tall white dude with brown eyes. Until he opens his mouth, and that argentine accent comes out, you’d never guess he was not USA born and bred.
July 28th, 2009 at 11:56 am
122 – As I said before, your opinion comes from the fact that you’ve perverted the definition of Christianity.
July 28th, 2009 at 12:22 pm
I have no idea why this was posted. Everybody on this site is as least somewhat politically sentient, and anybody who doesn’t know that Mormons are the most Republican voting bloc in the nation (of any significant size) isn’t cognizant of contemporary reality.
July 28th, 2009 at 5:22 pm
#129 From your perspective obviously I can’t be a Christian. If Martha and the others were honest they’d admit that Protestants like me can’t be Christian if they consider their religion to be correct.
#123 That’s not about putting limits. It’s about recognizing that I don’t worship the vastly different Mormon God and the Mormon Jesus. If Mormonism is Christianity than Protestants like me logically can’t be considered Christians. We don’t worship your God or believe in your deities.
July 28th, 2009 at 7:21 pm
131. That’s just it, it is limits. You have put the limit that Christianity doesn’t have room for some different doctrines on the Gospel than yours. It argues salvation is impossible for someone who reject some medieval creed. As if God was in the room when they wrote it. That’s a huge amount of faith in a group of men who lived 1000+ years ago who claimed no special revelation, only the ability to read the same book you and I do. And many of who disagreed with the credes you claim define “Christianity”.
It’s incoherent and illogical to claim because I believe that Jesus is separate from God the father, that it must equate to referring to a different Jesus than the one your referring to. I worship Jesus of Nazareth, who do you worship? That seems to be an intellectual excuse to quantify differences in Doctrine that trouble ones testimony of Jesus, rather than having the humility and the self confidence that diversity requires.
I guess I could say your Christianity is different than mine, simlpy because you define it as someone who follows creeds and I define it as someone who follows the teaching of Christ.
July 28th, 2009 at 8:13 pm
#132 “That’s just it, it is limits. You have put the limit that Christianity doesn’t have room for some different doctrines on the Gospel than yours.”
Of course it does. However if everything you can imagine is the Gospel than the word has no meaning.
I’ve noticed that Mormon beliefs are a constitute a contradictory view on God and Jesus than Protestants/Catholics/Orthodox.
To claim both Mormons _and_ Catholics/Protestants/Orthodox are Christians is illogical. You may as well claim Muslims are Christians to since they claim to follow the true teachings of Christ and claim the Bible was mistranslated.
I’m not saying Mormons aren’t Christians and I would oppose any politician saying that. I’d equally oppose any politicians making the reverse statement as both are equally and needlessly offensive to large numbers of people.
July 28th, 2009 at 9:43 pm
131. Doug, I’m honest, and I would never tell you that your faith is not Christian. I would never even believe that. If you worship Jesus Christ, that makes you a Christian in my book, regardless of doctrinal differences.
I just don’t know why you worry about whether I am Christian or not. I don’t worry about your faith.
July 28th, 2009 at 9:44 pm
133. I don’t think Jason went all the way to “everything you can imagine” in his definition of Christianity.
July 29th, 2009 at 12:29 am
Wow. And this is what we will have to go through all over again.
July 29th, 2009 at 12:30 am
Folks, Mitt Romney is an American running for the office of President of the United States.
July 29th, 2009 at 4:23 pm
133 – “To claim both Mormons _and_ Catholics/Protestants/Orthodox are Christians is illogical. You may as well claim Muslims are Christians to since they claim to follow the true teachings of Christ and claim the Bible was mistranslated.”
What utter nonsense. I’d love to read the justification for this.