I can’t say whether or not there are death panels in the House bill until someone tells me what they are.
Sarah Palin again intoned gravely about them last night in her Facebook note: “We had been told there were no ‘death panels’ in the bill either. But look closely at the provision mandating bureaucratic panels that will be calling the shots regarding who will receive government health care.”
Look closely? What am I looking for?
When Harold Ford attended American University two weeks ago, he referenced the death panel claim, stating that it was a myth twisted around from a proposal of Senator Johnny Isakson (R-GA) that would have offered end-of-life care options — including voluntary euthanasia — to suffering seniors.
Is that a death panel? Is that what Palin was talking about?
A woman at the Maryland town hall that I attended shrieked to the attendant news media about how the government was going to kill her off because her liver was thrashed and the Obama administration would deem her ‘unproductive’ and thus not worthy of health care. Or of living. Or something. I don’t really know. I don’t think she did, either.
Others have suggested that ‘death panel’ is simply an inflammatory rhetorical tool meant to draw attention to the inevitable problem of state-run health care rationing. If you look closely at any health care bill that includes government mandates, this will be an issue. Is that what a death panel is? An intentionally provocative piece of rhetoric, and nothing more? No less an authority than the head of the Democratic Leadership Council seems not to have taken it as such.
Think about this dilemma too much and it becomes something of a tragicomedy: our nation’s top political actors are arguing back and forth about something with no coherent definition. Palin and Obama fire barbs back and forth about — what? What are we arguing about? We haven’t even defined our term, and we’ve wasted months of discourse on it.
Is this Rorschach test what Palin wanted? If she’d put forward a concrete definition, the debate surrounding ‘death panels’ would have been over in a week. If this was a purposeful strategy, it reveals her to be a highly Machiavellian player who knows how to change the national discourse. And if not, then she’s got to at least be seen as some kind of idiot savant.
If absolutely nothing else, it’s shown her to be an intensely influential figure — perhaps the most influential — amongst the right, and someone who, from behind her computer chair, can lob missiles at Democratic proposals without breaking a sweat. Everything about her star power, for better or for worse, has been confirmed by this saga.
Influence she’s got. But I can’t say whether or not there are death panels in the House bill until someone tells me what they are.
PS – Read the comments, where multiple people are telling me what death panels are, to see exactly what I’m talking about.
Talk to Alex Knepper at apkkib@aol.com
November 8th, 2009 at 4:11 pm
Actually, the end of life counseling provision is a prelude to the actual death panel, which is the government experts that decide if you are worthy of receiving life prolonging treatments based on age, health, prospects, etc (see, ability to pay more taxes to pay for Big Govenment).
Death panels always exist. In the free market, money is a major factor in the death panel, but it also fuels the creation of life saving drugs and treatments, and is less of a menace than government death panels.
The evil Palin and others identified is government with an interest in cutting costs being the death panel.
November 8th, 2009 at 4:16 pm
Alex,
The Independent Medical Advisory Council, Comparative Effectiveness Panel, end-of-life provisions, government rationing that will inevitably result in general.
Can we go with all-of-the-above?
November 8th, 2009 at 4:20 pm
http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Atlanta-Law–Politics-Examiner~y2009m8d14-Death-panels-require-no-end-of-life-counselling
Government option is a death panel
Death panels require no end of life counseling
The elderly town hall mobs have forced the removal end of life counselling provisions from the sight unseen Senate bill said to be similar to those passed by a House committee before the August recess:
Senator Chuck Grassley of Iowa, top Republican on the Senate Finance Committee, said in a statement Thursday that the provision had been dropped from consideration because it could be misinterpreted or implemented incorrectly.
A health care bill passed by three House committees allows Medicare to reimburse doctors for voluntary counseling sessions about end-of-life decisions. But critics have claimed the provision could lead to death panels and euthanasia for seniors.
Death panel problem solved? Not!
Counselling designed to persuade the ill to give up and voluntarily die in a hospice precedes a decision by the government option administrators to approve or disapprove life-saving or physical disability-correcting treatment.
If the patient agrees to eschew life enhancing procedures in favor of zoning out on morphine for the sake of deficit reduction, then the death panel takes a holiday.
But whether there exists a provision of the government option insurance policy requiring or authorizing end of life counselling by a doctor for fee reimbursement or gratis, in no way eliminates the existence of a death panel.
There is no government option absent a death panel.
Patients with private insurance must obtain approval for payment for life extending or enhancing treatment. If denied pre-approval, they can sue and/or pay for the treatment themselves. Insurance companies are loathe to deny coverage given their competition.
The government option replacement of private insurance would substitute a government panel of bureaucrats for insurance company underwriters, with the differences between them and private insurers being that the government would have no competitors and, under the House bill patients denied coverage would be prohibited to pay for such treatment out of their own pockets.
It is obvious to anyone with any understanding of economics that the public option or a co-op would drive private insurers out of business as employers opted for the cheaper government option vs. an 8% tax penalty coercion.
President Obama was accused of cognitive dissonance this past week with his attempted assurances that this would not happen since UPS and FedEx survive the Post Office. But what went uncommented upon was the fact that the private carriers are prohibited from making regular home delivery of letters unless they charge twice the fee charged by the Postal Service. Hence, all but pure idiots or those that must insure next day delivery use FedEx or UPS for regular letter mailings.
All insurance requires a “death panel”. Competition and the free market ensures more rational and compassionate decisions than impersonal government bureaucrats with a monopoly.
Government as the insurer inherently requires a decision maker concerning requests for reimbursement for requested treatment. The decider is a government panel with DISCRETION that answers to no one.
It is great that the end of life provisions were found out. What they revealed was an underlying evil of government power in so vital an area of life and death. It reveals the insidious incentive of a government desiring to “cut costs” to seek out the only area where costs can be cut, i.e. heroic efforts to save lives.
These end of life provisions were also made more vivid by President Obama’s cold Town Hall rejection of the suggestion by the daughter of a non-terminal 100 year-old mother that government panels consider her subjective will to live in a request for a pacemaker to extend her life. Obama said only objective considerations should save her from the preferred morphine zone out. This Obama statement was made weeks before unruly mobs of seniors dared raise their voices at congressional town halls.
Keith Ellison (D-MN) told his Town Hall voters that they needed to get over the “guilt trap” regarding saving their parents’ lives, much like those about to be raped should “lay back and enjoy it.”
Therefore, if we want to celebrate the threat from death panels, we will have to wait a bit longer. And while waiting, don’t be fooled that even the elimination of a government option, nor even the elimination of a co-op alternative removes the threat.
No!
A bill could establish no government insurer and still pass regulations applicable to private insurers that would essentially turn them into death panels as well.
It appears that while abortion was above Obama’s pay grade that he is paid quite enough to snuff out born alive infants that survive abortions; the severely disabled up to and including those named Shiavo; pacemakers for those over the age of 99; and even hip replacements for his own grandmother.
He said that he would gladly pay for his grandma’s hip but that he didn’t think taxpayers should have since she died soon thereafter. Obama forgot to mention that unlike him and members of Congress and Union members, it would be illegal for us mere citizens to pay for such treatment if the death panel says so.
November 8th, 2009 at 4:21 pm
Perhaps, by death panels she means “bureaucratic panels that will be calling the shots regarding who will receive government health care”, as stated in the very quote in question? I would say any government agencies responsible for making such decisions would fall under the “death panel” category. There are more than one.
November 8th, 2009 at 4:22 pm
Don’t get confused about death panels.
It turns out that They are the ones He has been waiting for.
November 8th, 2009 at 4:23 pm
So Alex, are you saying Harold Ford kind of agrees with Palin? Mickey Kaus seems to believe there are “death panel” issues in the bill.
November 8th, 2009 at 4:36 pm
Alex,
So, souring on Sarah so soon??
Any step towards single-payer is a step closer to death panels.
November 8th, 2009 at 5:10 pm
Can there be any doubt that the ObamaDems action in the US House last night has catapulted Sarah Palin as likely 2012 GOP POTUS nominee?
While the ridiculous ‘healthcare’ bill (or anything like it) will never pass the Senate and can never become law (just as with the silly House “cap and trade” bill), the ObamaDems have succeeded in doing at least one thing, which is, Palin (hopefully Palin/Rubio) in ‘12.
Just as Sarah Palin is the natural go-to candidate for domestic energy production issues (Alaska oil & gas etc. “drill baby drill”), she’s now more than the go-to candidate for ‘healthcare’ issues (“death panels” etc.).
November 8th, 2009 at 5:49 pm
Influential, yes. But she’s undisciplined, and a loose cannon. Who knows what she’ll do next, I’m sure she doesn’t. We don’t need any more NY23 disasters.
November 8th, 2009 at 6:21 pm
I love how people was saying Sarah’s endorsement of Doug Hoffman meant nothing when it looked like he’d win, and then when he lost it was her fault. Someone please explain THAT logic.
November 8th, 2009 at 6:24 pm
“If this was a purposeful strategy, it reveals her to be a highly Machiavellian player who knows how to change the national discourse.”
Oh come on, you can’t equate Machiavellian philosophy with bomb-throwing! Palin would end up on Machiavelli’s list of examples of princes that have no idea what they are doing
Or more likely, he wouldn’t classify her a prince(ss) at all since she’s more interested in some ideological goal, than in the acquisition and maintenance of power.
November 8th, 2009 at 6:26 pm
I think Sarah Palin needs a depth panel .
November 8th, 2009 at 6:26 pm
November 8th, 2009 at 6:28 pm
10 TC,
Easy, we blamed Palin for causing problems for the party by promoting ideology over pragmatism and the issues, and we blame her equally when she and her cohorts in the purist wing cause a loss of a seat for their misjudgement.
If we run Hoffman’s and Palin’s, conservative ideology over conservative leadership and pragmatism, we’ll get our party trounced in ‘10, ‘12, and any other year.
November 8th, 2009 at 6:49 pm
House health care bill has nowhere to go in Senate
http://www.miamiherald.com/business/nation/v-fullstory/story/1322384.html
November 8th, 2009 at 6:50 pm
“Influential, yes. But she’s undisciplined, and a loose cannon. Who knows what she’ll do next, I’m sure she doesn’t. We don’t need any more NY23 disasters.” Look in the mirror lately Martha? Why is it that your camp is having such a difficult time staying on the Conservative reservation? Talk about exploding loose cannons. How is that Dede thing working for yah?
November 8th, 2009 at 6:53 pm
That’s merely the refrain of the Choir Rombotic. If Mitt does it, it’s necessary and perfect. If those viewed as potential rivals do it, it’s offensive, wrong, unconscionable, etc., if the action doesn’t work. If the action works, it’s also meaningless.
To paraphrase Bush 41: Romney gooooood, rivals baaaad.
November 8th, 2009 at 7:02 pm
MarkG,
It will all make sense to you after we initiate you into our cult in our secret ceremony.
November 8th, 2009 at 7:06 pm
#17:
Every camp is guilty of that. To the Romney people every criticism of him is because he is Mormon. Palin supporters say that criticism of her is because she is a woman or because those doing the criticising have been taken in by the liberal media. Both camps claim that the other and the rest of us just “can’t see the light” and need to wise up and support their candidate.
November 8th, 2009 at 7:16 pm
Dave, I’m encouraged to learn that the newer induction ceremonies involve less bloodletting than in the past.
November 8th, 2009 at 7:21 pm
Okay, can we quit with the NY-23 thing? If Dede had been salvageable, we wouldn’t have paid attention. The woman was beyond moderate, she was a liberal. Yes, it’s a big tent, but there has to be some centerpole in that tent; there must be something to rally around. Basic fiscal conservative ideals, at least. A Democrat got in? Big whoop. She would have voted the exact same way. She would have been completely and totally useless. And she endorsed the Democrat, for Pete’s sake. She’s the real villain here, not Palin.
November 8th, 2009 at 7:22 pm
Hoffman went from nothing to losing by four points in a matter of 12 days. That’s the real story here.
November 8th, 2009 at 7:34 pm
OJ, the real question is; How is that Hoffman thing working our for you?
Dede would have won, and we would have kept the seat. As it is, Owens is one more vote for Pelosi.
TC, I think it was the Palin people taking the credit, and telling how brilliant she was in the Hoffman debacle – at least until it was a debacle.
November 8th, 2009 at 7:37 pm
OJ, I don’t think Romney or any of his supporters are having a hard time staying on the conservative reservation. That’s been your line for a while now, and I understand why. You’re overboard, and saying things that are just almost complete nonsense.
November 8th, 2009 at 7:48 pm
Martha,
The debacle was the GOP nominating Dede. They didn’t give us anything to work with. We had no choice but to reject. And Romney’s a bloody coward. He lost my respect when he quit after Super Tuesday. Even Huckabee held on, for goodness sake. Romney doesn’t even have the spine the Huckster does. You honestly believe he stands a chance against the gestapo left? Yeah, right.
November 8th, 2009 at 7:54 pm
There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that is true. Quite the contrary, Scozzafava strongly opposed the Democratic bills that came out of the House and Senate; favoring instead the containment of cost by implementing malpractice reform and permitting the purchase of insurance policies across state lines.
http://race42008.com/2009/11/07/110709-open-thread/#comment-627216
November 8th, 2009 at 7:55 pm
“I love how people was saying Sarah’s endorsement of Doug Hoffman meant nothing when it looked like he’d win, and then when he lost it was her fault. Someone please explain THAT logic.”
Its the same logic as people on this site saying that the important governor’s election was VA, not NJ when it looked like Christie was going to lose. People magnify what suits them, and change when it suits.
Don’t you remember how terrible Obama’s inexperience was, and how Palin’s didn’t matter (in any case, she was CiC of the Alaska National Guard)? Welcome to politics.
November 8th, 2009 at 8:03 pm
Martha:–
In reality the extra NY-23 vote for Obamacare amounted to squat. The Dems would have won anyway; Palin did the right thing in NY-23 politically, pragmatically, philosophically and courageously. (Even Pawlenty belatedly followed suit, with Huck — only the ‘oh so careful’ Romney tried to play it safe — but in reality, the safe bet was to go with Palin (so Romney not even that smart on this).
November 8th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
and Martha, as said before there’s NO WAY the Dems can win in the Senate on ObamaCare — all in all, things could not have worked out better for the GOP (and Palin for that matter) going forward from the US House’s Saturday nite vote.
November 8th, 2009 at 8:11 pm
Thanks for providing this most recent teachable moment in illogic.
First we’ve got Palin who’s indefatigable errors make her a complete loser. And this incompetent rube backs third-party dude Hoffman, following a number of right-wing talkers and interest groups, but nevertheless attracting the most attention.
The chick backed by substantial funds and national punditry from the national GOP party organization — the lady we’re now told was most electable — folded like a house of cards. And then she backed her partisan opposite, endorsing his politics in whole.
So backwater rube Palin caused the GOP’s pick to fold, and brought non-establishment Hoffman within a few points of victory despite the fact that Hoffman received the backing of our two great established political parties.
But at least the interminable moaning over this state of affairs promises never to subside. And the proposed lesson is never to question the establishment’s judgment while following the leadership over the nearest cliff.
November 8th, 2009 at 8:12 pm
Palin did not do the right thing. Huck and Romney did.
November 8th, 2009 at 8:26 pm
DanL, I actually agree with #31 in terms of cost/benefit for their own political prospects. They risked the least capital in a low-stakes gamble.
The error that I see is in the thinking of those who are quick to give the party hierarchy a pass while vicariously insulting parts of the base who feel sold out by the hierarchy.
The Blue-Dog-to-Progressive coalition on the Dem side has the deepest divisions. But the Dems are eager to exaggerate the superficial divisions on the Repub side in order to win. All the internal conservative-versus-GOP caterwauling has but one beneficiary.
November 8th, 2009 at 8:49 pm
Oh DUH Alex. What is a death panel he says. Someone transcribe the phrase using four syllable words so Alex feels it is worthy of his time to try and understand it. Throw in some Latin prefixes.
What a crappy week this has been. By the way, the swine flu ain’t all it’s billed to be but when eight small children have it simultaneously it can wear on you. Yes I’m shamelessly looking for sympathy and I’m exhausted.
What’s a death panel he says.
November 8th, 2009 at 8:51 pm
I think Alex is just trying to aggravate me into voting Palin. She was awesome during these last few crisis. She’s got it going on.
Not convinced she’s the president yet, but we definitely need her on the team.
November 8th, 2009 at 9:03 pm
Liz, sorry to hear about your sick kids.
November 8th, 2009 at 9:16 pm
We’ll never know. A pretty good case can be made that Scozz would have been FORCED to vote with the rest of the GOP if she wanted to keep her job.
All we know is that Palin’s gamble and Palin’s homeboy both lost. And it made her look like she had stupid judgment, all over again.
November 8th, 2009 at 9:41 pm
sarah is the only person in the republican party that has that ability to excite the base. I saw her at 3 campaign events last year 2 of which mccain wasn’t with her. she drew 25 thousnd and the other 40 thousand,mccain couldn’t draw flies. she was that good.People voted for her not mccain and next time they will be seeing her at the top of the ticket–just you watch!!!
November 8th, 2009 at 9:56 pm
1. Read comments 1-6 to see my point confirmed.
2. This is now on RCP.
3. Poor Liz! Even I have to bestow some sympathy on you there. Eight kids with the Swine Flu? Yikes!
November 8th, 2009 at 9:59 pm
Re: Scozzafava — 219-216 still would have been a failure.
November 8th, 2009 at 10:15 pm
Buck the smuck:
You went to 3 campaign events? She never had 40,000 people at her events, where was that? I followed the campaign and never heard that. And why do you have to put McCain down to make Palin look good.
November 8th, 2009 at 10:19 pm
Ohio Joe-WTF are you talking aobut? Romney didn’t endorse Scozzafava and even had his PAC give a last minute donation of $5,000 to the Hoffman campaign. Seriously man put down whatever kind of kool aid you have been sipping on.
November 8th, 2009 at 10:27 pm
Palin never did explain her death panel accusation very well. I don’t think anyone believes that when seniors and disabled people become ‘unproductive’ as she calls it, that they are going to be denied medical care. Now, if you want to talk about rationing Sarah, go right ahead. Enough of the nonsense.
November 8th, 2009 at 10:27 pm
had 40thousand in richmond, 25thousnd in fredericksburg, and 70 thousand at the villages in fl. saw mccain also– no one showed up. he’s a good man not a good candidate.
November 8th, 2009 at 10:28 pm
43. She’s a celebrity, not a leader.
November 8th, 2009 at 10:29 pm
It’s not just one vote! Owens is going to vote with the dems more than Scozzafava would have! I don’t see how this is not clear by now.
We lost the seat unnecessarily.
November 8th, 2009 at 10:30 pm
Liz,
I did not know you have 8 children! Good luck with the flu. Take care of yourself, too.
November 8th, 2009 at 10:31 pm
#44
This is getting frightening, we have our very own Obama.
November 8th, 2009 at 10:32 pm
this one in the house is done for now.
I for one will campaign harder against my Dem rep., no matter how he votes.
The battle cry must start now:
“PELOSI MUST GO, PELOSI MUST GO, PELOSI MUST GO”
The only way to do that is to replace all the Dems, with fiscal conservative GOP’ers, and
social conservative GOP’ers.
That means Reagan conservatives.
When our country is prosperous all boats rise, I can personally attest to that.
“PELOSI MUST GO, PELOSE MUST GO”
November 8th, 2009 at 10:38 pm
If NY23 would have put Dede in, the vote probably would not have been 219 / 216 as some have implied. Don’t you realize how emboldened some of the Democrats were that a Democrat won in a district that had been republican for over 100 years? take that victory away, making it a Republican sweep last Tuesday, and you would have had a few more blue dogs fearing losing their jobs. NY23 cost us a lot more than a 2 vote swing.
November 8th, 2009 at 10:39 pm
I have met Sarah Palin, she is not a candidate for the Nobel Peace prize, she will not win the
Olympics for Nome, she will not get 1600 on her SATs:
But she will connect with the regular Joe and Jane.
She will take a stand, and make a stand.
She will solve common problems with common ideas.
She will uphold the US Constitution, not try to rewrite it to reward the people she thinks
deserve what they have not earned.
Will she run for President in 2012, yes, will she win, who knows, no one today.
November 8th, 2009 at 10:41 pm
49. True, true.
47. Yup.
November 8th, 2009 at 10:43 pm
50. Yes, I believe Palin does connect well with people. She is the cheerleader type, always smiling and happy, if shallow.
But she is unpredictable, and undisciplined. Not to mention arrogant. That’s not a good combo for POTUS.
November 8th, 2009 at 10:52 pm
#49–dede was very liberal– might have changed parties. now the repub. can get themselves together with primaries and take out of dem. in 2010. pelose had as many votes to pass bill as she needed- she let the others vote no to save their seats.
November 8th, 2009 at 10:55 pm
Liz,
1) Elderberry can keep the flu virus from replicating.
2) Astragalus has been shown in studies to increase NK Cell Activity.
3) Olive Leaf can knock out the flu overnight.
4) Garlic contains Alicin, which increases the potency of oxygen in your bloodstream.
5) Ashwagandha is strongly anti-viral, and will give you energy.
6) Echinacea boosts immune systems under attack.
7) If you can afford it; AHCC, Indole 3 Carbinol, SOD Gliadin, and Colostrum.
Best of luck!!
November 8th, 2009 at 10:58 pm
Dave,
Will you please email me?
pmweste@yahoo.com
November 8th, 2009 at 11:19 pm
buck the smuck
@53
Is this the way Palin supporters are spinning one of the biggest political debacles that a politician could ever make? Scozzafana always voted with the republicans, and she wouldn’t have changed parties. Look at her record she was not a Democrat even though she had a few moderate social views.
November 8th, 2009 at 11:29 pm
Martha,
It’s been so long since I’ve used email that I’ve forgotten my password. I’ll try tomorrow on another computer. Scout’s Honor.
November 8th, 2009 at 11:40 pm
Buck @53
I’s possible that NY-23 took Palin out of the running and blew her chances of becoming the Nominee. She’s already put the GOP down by calling them a Political machine..not realizing she needs that political establishment to get the nomination. If she runs, her only chance will be a 3rd party, and 3rd parties never get nominated.
She wants to be the leader of a Populist Political movement, lately she has become a Beckpod and following his book Common Sense, it’s about Government spending. Even Rush and Levine might back away from her after awhile.
November 8th, 2009 at 11:41 pm
How exciting. Rombot LKV admits to Rombot Martha:
And his name is Mitt Romney. He’s only half as frightening as his unquestioning adulation in some circles.
It isn’t “getting frightening.” It’s tales of Chuckie all the way…
November 8th, 2009 at 11:42 pm
Officials: U.S. Aware of Hasan Efforts to Contact al Qaeda
Army Major in Fort Hood Massacre Used ‘Electronic Means’ to Connect with Terrorists
http://abcnews.com/Blotter/fort-hood-shooter-contact-al-qaeda-terrorists-officials/story?id=9030873
Alleged shooter tied to mosque of 9/11 hijackers
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hDlRkRffovJlX8OT05h89h3zfgWwD9BROHGO0
Fort Hood gunman had told US military colleagues that infidels should have their throats cut
Major Nidal Malik Hasan, the gunman who killed 13 at America’s Fort Hood military base, once gave a lecture to other doctors in which he said non-believers should be beheaded and have boiling oil poured down their throats.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/6526030/Fort-Hood-gunman-had-told-US-military-colleagues-that-infidels-should-have-their-throats-cut.html
November 8th, 2009 at 11:49 pm
not realizing she needs that political establishment to get the nomination.
Does she?
I don’t think that she does.
Perhaps one needs it to get started on a national level, but she’s already gone through those hoops.
November 9th, 2009 at 12:23 am
#60 MarkG
I believe that Romney supporters are more concerned with the issues and what Romney’s skills would bring as president. Palin Supporters care more about her…I never hear Palin supporters talk about the issues. Except when she rehashes the issues on Face book. It is frightening the way some of these Palin people, especially those that come here on the weekend, they are holding her up to be some sort of god.
I could never support Romney if he did most of the things Palin is allowed to get away with. I’m looking to support someone who would IMO be a good president. From what I see here is Romney supporters mostly defending his record, don’t know why you might think we are unquestioning…Most Romney supporters here already know his record and we like to defend it.
It’s different when someone is defending a record than it is defending the person.
November 9th, 2009 at 12:25 am
This site has become a blame Palin for everything site and it is getting old. If you’re for Palin you get ridiculed. I actually appreciate Alex’s honesty as of late. He doesn’t say he is for her but he isn’t against her and he will honestly give her credit when she deserves it and he will take it away when she doesn’t. Wish more people, on this site, were like him.
November 9th, 2009 at 12:27 am
lkv = the most disengenuous of them all. I think you have beaten out Martha and knickers for the title…or at least tied.
November 9th, 2009 at 12:32 am
#64
And how am I being disengenuous?
November 9th, 2009 at 12:33 am
This whole “destroy the establishment” mentality will create a monster if allowed to grow. Our “establishment” is already squarely center-right, issues oriented, and able to win (our “establishment” did a fine job in Virginia and New Jersey, didn’t it?).
The “destroy the establishment” group, conservatives and liberals alike, debase political discourse and deepen partisan divisions, and distract our country from where its attentions should be focused. That’s a perilous combination.
And conservative purists and revolutionaries, do you really think the country is going to be wanting Palin, if Mr. “Yes we can!” Obama is looking like a fool three years from now? And if he’s doing decent but has exploitable flaws, will she be able to exploit them to win? Doubtful. She has far too many of her own.
November 9th, 2009 at 12:40 am
lkv, you create straw men and then attempt, based on your creation, to build a narrative that doesn’t exist, ie…Palin can only and will most likely run as a 3rd Party Nominee. Utterly ridiculous and you know it…you just hope some people will buy it and start looking towards Romney. BUT, if that’s the game you want to play, then good luck…it won’t work.
November 9th, 2009 at 12:42 am
MPC, another straw man argument…nobody wants to destroy the establishment. If anything we want the establishment to be held to higher standards and work for the people of the party and the nation respectively.
November 9th, 2009 at 12:50 am
#66MPC
Your right, that kind of message is not going to vote Obama out. Palin has sent a few messages on Face Book that sound like she wants to be leader of a conservative revolution, not a conservative movement, and her supporters don’t question her motives…When she uses words in her messages like “for the cause” and so forth, doesn’t anybody want to know what the “cause” is.
November 9th, 2009 at 12:58 am
70 – it’s pretty simple…the cause is getting Obama out of the White House in 2012 and getting our elected officials to do the work of the people. It’s quite simple…it’s not a 3rd party conservative conspiracy. But I did hear she is the newest member of The Skulls and the Freemasons and the Illuminata…
November 9th, 2009 at 12:59 am
sorry I typed wrong number – that’s obviously for 69
November 9th, 2009 at 1:05 am
#67 jerseyrepublican:
Well, we will see what happens, but I can see certain things forming and beginning to happen…. nobody, with the exception of Pawlenty has gone so far as communicate what their intentions might be than Palin. NY-23 is an example.
November 9th, 2009 at 1:18 am
#70
Your right, but it’s not going to happen by purging the party, what’s conservative in the East Coast is not the same as conservative in the South. So who’s conservative is gonna win out.
You forgot the Bilderbirger conspiracy…..
November 9th, 2009 at 1:54 am
Death Panel = Govt Rationing of healthcare.
November 9th, 2009 at 2:08 am
Check out this video from an East Texas news network. This news report couldn’t have been framed better for our side.
Provision in health care bill causing seniors concern
http://www.kltv.com/Global/story.asp?S=11437145
November 9th, 2009 at 2:42 am
There are no death panels.
C’mon AK you are a smart guy you should have worked that out by now.
Even ex Gov Palin (facebook) puts “’s around her invention.
November 9th, 2009 at 5:14 am
“This site has become a blame Palin for everything site and it is getting old. If you’re for Palin you get ridiculed.” Haha, I would not blame the whole site Jersey, but yes this site does have a small, but significant element of characters that let’s say are a tad unique among Conservative sites. I think it is almost a compliment that they are lashing out at us. Clearly something has gotten under their skin. Now, all we need to do is get the trolls worked up as well. Ooops, never-mind.
November 9th, 2009 at 6:32 am
I am 35 year old graduate. I am only one son of my parents. My father was a business man, he lost big money in his business and Bankrupt in 1986, that time I was in high school. Bank officials harrased him very cruely , they took legal steps to my father and post aution sale for our house and he suffered mental agony and died of heart attack on 1990. After my father death my mother faced many obstacles, now she is an arthritis patient, she cant walk with out anyones help. The last 19 years I have been fighting legally with bank, I lost all my hard earned money, now I am big zero and struggling for my daily needs. Now they are going to sale my house by auction for US$ 60,000.00. I don’t know where I can go with my mother? I am asking only one dollar per person, that the cost of your bed coffee or cigar (you can donate as much as you can). My paypal id is forrysakki@rediffmail.com or use the below link
By Sakki
November 9th, 2009 at 7:48 am
#78: Take that, spam filter!
November 9th, 2009 at 7:57 am
I fail to understand this type of deer-in-headlights fear.
“Destroy the establishment” is an ongoing sentiment that rises and falls in response to what the political class in DC are doing.
In case you missed it, the “destroy the establishment” mood was palpably on the rise in the ‘08 election year, with all of the GOP candidates seeking support by appealing to it. The main candidates eagerly adopted the phrase “Washington is broken” in one form or another; anyone who could do so emphasized that he wasn’t from inside the Beltway.
November 9th, 2009 at 8:03 am
“Ohio Joe-WTF are you talking aobut? Romney didn’t endorse Scozzafava and even had his PAC give a last minute donation of $5,000 to the Hoffman campaign. Seriously man put down whatever kind of kool aid you have been sipping on.” I rather be accused of drinking kool aid than want my cake and eating it too. You might want to learn the new talking points from your fellow camp members who are either celebrating the Owen’s victory or blaming Mrs. Palin for it. Now you tell us that Mr. Romney donated to the Hoffman campaign. I would not say that too loud to some of your camp members. Then again, it is a good thing (perhaps) that Mr. Hoffman did not win. We would never hear the end of it how that last minites donation from Mr. Romney put Mr. Hoffman over the edge.
On a side note, once in a blue moon, I read a blog from a fellow Conservative Ohioan. The blog-owner (who is not really in anyone’s camp (to my knowledge) noted how the moderates are celebrating victory in VA now. The Conservative Gentleman said that if that is Moderatism, count him in.
November 9th, 2009 at 8:23 am
Romney? People here still think that plastic RINO can ever beat Obama? In the NY-23 race he basically voted “present”, undoubtedly after several days of focus groups, complete with power point presentations by beltway Republican gurus who gave us 2006 and 2008. I come to Mitten’s websites such as this once in a while for comic relief and wasn’t disappointed today.
November 9th, 2009 at 8:36 am
OJ,
You not an honest guy anymore. The things you write about Romney and his supporters are flat out false. what happened to you?
No one is celebrating Owens victory. and no one would ever claim that a last minute donation by Romney could have done anything. Give me a break.
Yes, Palin is partially responsible for losing a GOP seat. So are Rush, Beck, and others. It was folly to make it a national referendum, and to throw support behind a very, very weak candidate before learning of his many deficiencies.
You keep proclaiming that Romney people are the RINOs, moderates, etc, and that Palin people are conservatives as pure as the driven snow. It’s all just a little bit silly, OJ. You know that neither are true.
November 9th, 2009 at 8:37 am
“In the NY-23 race he basically voted “present”,” BINGO. I wonder if in 2012 if the two candidates are Mr. Romney and Mr. Obama, we vote present on the ballot; will they congradulate us for being the adults and being above the fray? Oh no, I bet the Romneyites will change their tune again and demand that we take sides in the Presidential contest and vote for Mr. Romney. If my choice was between Mr. Obama and a guy who’s first name starts with M, I’d of course vote for the M. However, it is funny how the Romneyites were willing to vote present in NY-23. I guess some of us have than luxury and some of us do not.
November 9th, 2009 at 8:39 am
“You not an honest guy anymore.” Haha, yeah because I am hacked off at your guy and his new friends.
“You keep proclaiming that Romney people are the RINOs, moderates, etc, and that Palin people are conservatives as pure as the driven snow. It’s all just a little bit silly, OJ. You know that neither are true.” The short answer is yes Martha, there are some moderates in the Palin camp, but at least they are disiplined enough to stay on the Conservative reservation.
November 9th, 2009 at 8:41 am
BTW, Martha, I am glad that I have a few Romneyite friends that actual are Conservatives first.
November 9th, 2009 at 8:49 am
73 – haha…you’re right I did forget Bilderberg…she wasn’t asked to join them yet but I am sure it is coming soon. I’m not sure how many times I should or have to repeat this…but I will once more just to clarify my position on the conservative scale. I am a moderate republican. I am moderate on social issues and a hardliner on fiscal responsibility, foreign affairs and national security. I don’t believe you can make a comparison of what happened in NY-23 as an example of the differences between Northeastern, Moderate Conservatism and Southern Traditional Conservatism. I don’t care about Dede’s social views, I do care that she would have voted YES for the stimulus, YES for cap and trade and NO for cutting taxes. If you cannot vote along with your party on these principles, then a conservative you are not…IMO.
November 9th, 2009 at 8:57 am
“I don’t care about Dede’s social views, I do care that she would have voted YES for the stimulus, YES for cap and trade and NO for cutting taxes. If you cannot vote along with your party on these principles, then a conservative you are not…IMO.” Shhhhh, don’t let the cat out of the bags Jersey, they do not want to admit that there is reasonable moderates in the Palin camp. They’d rather believe that we Palinites are all hot-headed Conservatives like me.
November 9th, 2009 at 9:20 am
OJ, You do know that Romney won the conservative vote in 08, right? I would say the bulk of his supporters are conservative, yet he has the ability to appeal to a wider group because he is seen as the most competent person to take on the Obama/Pelosi/Reid mess.
Why are you hacked off at Romney? He’s doing many things to help the people/causes you claim to care about. He’s doing far more than Palin is to help get conservative Republicans elected. He did not vote present in NY23, but wisely stayed out of a lose-lose situation.
November 9th, 2009 at 9:23 am
Romney won the conservative vote in ‘08. Okay?!?! Who won Iowa? Who won South Carolina?
November 9th, 2009 at 10:05 am
“OJ, You do know that Romney won the conservative vote in 08, right?” He may have won a plurality among Conservatives, but he did not win a majority. As for 2012, we shall see. Well Martha, to be fair, Mr. Romney has gotten his act together with regards to foreign policy. He has promted democracy in Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan and Hondures. With regards to Hondures, I admit he beat everybody to the punch including my candidate. I am thus confused that if Mr. Romney is doing so well with regards to other countries, why cannot he do the same in The United States.
November 9th, 2009 at 10:27 am
OJ, There you go again . . . Sigh.
Romney’s FP has not changed at all since 08. What specifically is he not doing right in the US? LOL
November 9th, 2009 at 10:58 am
“What specifically is he not doing right in the US? LOL” Haha, why do I have to keep repeating NY-23 and TARP?
I am not going to get into a nasty foreign policy contest, but in fairness to all of us, Hondures was not an issue in 2007-08 for example.
November 9th, 2009 at 11:26 am
romney will never be president. he’s a wishy -washy conservative. his belief system can change with the winds. has been progrssive too much in the past- will kill him in presidential election with people wanting conservatism after what we have in white house now.
November 9th, 2009 at 11:27 am
#61 good point Alex, I agree
November 9th, 2009 at 1:34 pm
93. OJ,
Romney did the right thing in NY23, and the aftermath bears it out.
We can keep disagreeing on TARP, but Romney wasn’t wrong there, either.
You are grasping at straws to find fault with Romney.
Bring on something real.
November 9th, 2009 at 2:22 pm
Death panels already exist in our insurance policies. They have to, it’s a matter of saving money. Every single person with an American based health insurance plan is subject to bureaucrats making decisions on whether or not they will receive coverage and if so, what kind of care goes with that. Death panels exist in many hospitals too, for the same reasons. People are booted out of policies and out of hospitals every minute of every day. People are dying for want of health care and health care coverage. Sarah Palin must be an idiot if she doesn’t know her scare tactics are already enforced on every level of today’s American health care. Is that what people want for a leader? Sarah is political candy – nice to look at but not really worth anything in the long run. If she wants to be MY president, she’s got an awful lot of growing up to do, not to mention learning.
November 9th, 2009 at 2:26 pm
PS – don’t use astragalus for anyone with a fever, and don’t use ecchinacea for the H1N1 as it can exacerbate a cytokinetic storm – the hyperreaction healthy immune systems have against this flu. Common sense folks: rest, fluids, and go immediately for help if there’s any sign of breathing troubles. Most people with this flu don’t need any special help, but it’s never a picnic with sick kids in the house.
November 9th, 2009 at 2:26 pm
“You are grasping at straws to find fault with Romney.
Bring on something real.” These issues are real enough for me.
November 9th, 2009 at 2:50 pm
99. Well, then your argument against Romney is very weak.
Everyone agreed TARP was needed to prevent complete financial meltdown. Romney was IN NO WAY responsible for the outcome, and your gal was on the let’s do it side, anyway. I don’t hear you whining about her support for it. ? Or that she initially thought it was about healthcare reform. (She couldn’t keep all those issues forced into her head straight.)
You also fail to fault with Palin for lobbying for, then saying she was against, then eventually accepting 99% of the stimulus funds for Alaska. That was a true flip-flop, as opposed to just a flip. And the stimulus is a much bigger issue than TARP.
I think you’ve glommed onto TARP as some way to diss Romney, and you have specifically avoided talking about the stimulus, because you know it hurts Palin.
NY23 was a very bad outcome as well, with Palin smack dab in the middle of it.
November 9th, 2009 at 3:10 pm
“NY23 was a very bad outcome as well, with Palin smack dab in the middle of it.” Yeah, like I said before, Mrs. Palin paid off these 4 political gansters, haha. C’mon.
November 9th, 2009 at 6:22 pm
OJ,
How about a little intellectual honesty? Palin jumped in because she was heavily pressured. She didn’t think about the consequences, and I’ll bet she didn’t bother to learn much about Hoffman beforehand. It was a disaster.
Romney made the right decision. Palin, Rush, Beck, and others are responsible for the loss of the seat. Owens is going to vote with Pelosi/Obama on everything. Did you see the way they trotted him out?
Come on, OJ.
November 9th, 2009 at 7:21 pm
[...] Alex asked; What the Heck Is a Death Panel? [...]
November 19th, 2009 at 8:23 am
[...] Hoffman went from nothing to losing by four points in a matter of 12 days. That’s the real story here. Martha Says: November 8th, 2009 at 7:34 pm. OJ, the real question is; How is that Hoffman thing working our for you? Dede would have won, …. Ohio Joe-WTF are you talking aobut? Romney didn’t endorse Scozzafava and even had his PAC give a last minute donation of $5000 to the Hoffman campaign. Seriously man put down whatever kind of kool aid you have been sipping on. …Page 2 [...]