Bill Keller- What a spooky picture
Seeing that I’ve been posting a couple of times a month this year, opposed to every day, I was somewhat taken back to find that one of my posts on this guy has found it’s way back to front page discussions this far out of the 2012 primaries. So, I figured I would clear up just what I said about Bill Keller, so there is no confusion among the masses about the self appointed replacement of St. Peter guarding the pearly gates. Without taking sides in the current debate that is going on here at this site, I wanted to make a few points about what my posts said in full.
Since the first post is apparently now unavailable on this web site, I will quote David’s post. The “claim” is in referral to Kristofer’s post, while the “truth” is David’s response:
CLAIM: “Tommy Oliver highlighted the vicious anti-Mormon bigotry this Huckabee-aligned group has engaged in.”
TRUTH:
The link to Tommy’s article which is here, says nothing about anti-Mormon bigotry, in fact it talks about a statement by pastor Bill Killer where he says:
Sadly, Michael (Jackson) grew up in the Jehovah’s Witnesses cult. This is the cult born out of the depraved mind of Charles Taze Russell and denies the very deity of Christ. You can go to Google and type in “cults Jehovah’s Witnesses” and it will give you many websites to document their false theology.
- Does Lorelli know that Mormon and Jehovah’s Witness is not the same faith?
- Does Lorelli think that pastors are not allowed to address belief systems that they believe are false? To not address the truth claims of various faiths would be intellectual ignorance.
- Also, how is a statement by pastor Bill Keller evidence that ARTL is an anti-Mormon group?
- What evidence does he have that connected Bill Keller with ARTL?
What are the SPECIFIC “anti-Mormon” acts by ARTL?
While technically the post which is linked by David that I authored does not specifically point out what Keller stated about Mitt Romney, the LDS faith, Gays, Guns, Rock and Roll, or the plot to sabatoge America, some of my previous posts have. David may not be aware that the particular post (written by me) that was linked to was, in fact, a follow up to a few earlier posts that I had written. At the time, Kristofer had done an interview with Steve Deace for this website, and had stated that one of the groups leaders was Mr. Keller. He also posted a video that was produced by this group, the ARTL, which tore into Governor Romney, Ann Coulter, and just about everything else on this side of black helicopters, UFO sightings, and Jonathan Christian (J.C.) Webster III. In this interview with Mr. Lorelli, Mr. Deace also tore into Governor Romney.
Now, as most of our readers who followed this site during the last primaries probably remember that I went after both the Romney and the Huckabee camp, so I have no dog in this fight. However, at the time of those interviews, I followed up with posts concerning Mr. Keller’s attacks on a whole bunch of different denominations, including Mitt Romney’s, Fred Thompson’s, Michael Jackson’s, and just about anyone else who Mr. Keller deemed unworthy of entrance into the pearly gates.
2 John 7 says, “For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.” So Christians who stand on true Biblical principles are faced with bleak choices for the moment in Thompson and cult member Mitt Romney.Voters beware.
He also said this about Mr. Thompson’s religion:
Christians looking for a Presidential candidate in Fred Thompson ought to think about it a bit more before jumping on the bandwagon. Thompson has been very elusive about his faith since Focus on the Family’s James Dobson suggested that Thompson should declare his faith. At that time, a Thompson spokesman said that the prospective candidate was baptized into the Church of Christ- a sect that some consider a dangerous cult because of its teachings on baptism and works based doctrines that question the atonement of sins through Jesus Christ.
Mr. Keller, who is one of the people behind the ARTL video about Ann Coulter and Mitt Romney (as Kristofer pointed out on this post), became somewhat notorious during the 2007 primaries for his insistance that “a vote for Mitt Romney is a vote for Satan.”
Originally, I had a post up here at race42008 (as it was called then) that highlighted Mr. Keller’s quote at the time he was referring directly to Governor Romney. Since I cannot currently find it, I will quote his website directly. Here is exactly what Mr. Keller said, quoted word for word, on Governor Romney:
If you vote for Mitt Romney, you are voting for satan! This message today is not about Mitt Romney. Romney is an unashamed and proud member of the Mormon cult founded by a murdering polygamist pedophile named Joseph Smith nearly 200 years ago. The teachings of the Mormon cult are doctrinally and theologically in complete opposition to the Absolute Truth of God’s Word. There is no common ground. If Mormonism is true, then the Christian faith is a complete lie. There has never been any question from the moment Smith’s cult began that it was a work of satan and those who follow their false teachings will die and spend eternity in hell. This message is about the top Christian leaders in our nation who are supporting this cult members quest to become the next President of the United States.
I’m not taking sides here because I have no clue what is going on in this current argument, but I wanted to clear up this point about what I said about Mr. Keller because, apparently, he takes it upon himself to educate us on just who he will let enter Heaven, and who he (Mr. Keller) will personally cast into the pits of Hell. By the way, I forgot to mention that he is a convicted felon for… you guessed it… insider trading.
A former businessman convicted of insider trading in 1989, Keller served two years in federal prison, was released and later earned a degree in biblical studies from Liberty University in Lynchburg, Virginia.
UPDATE: Apparently some folks have forgotten that I am not some sort of “Rombot in Disguise.” I am neither Rombot nor Huckster. I personally could care less who won Iowa in 2008 since I didn’t vote there and would not have voted for either of them if I had. So… in all fairness, I will provide links to some of my pieces that I’ve written about Governor Romney, such as this one, this one, this one, and this one.
November 22nd, 2009 at 5:38 pm
This man is like the white Protestant Jesse Jackson.
November 22nd, 2009 at 6:06 pm
Bill Keller is anti-Mormon. So? There was anti-Mormon sentiment in 2008. The question is, is that what cost Romney the nomination. I don’t think so. If Romney were a Lutheran would he have won. That’s the question that everybody dodges, but deserves answered.
November 22nd, 2009 at 6:12 pm
Adam Graham,
I didn’t support Mitt Romney, am not planning on it at this point, and this has nothing to do with the nomination. I don’t care about who won.
What I am talking about is David Schmidt and Kristofer Lorelli taking my posts out of context. I am referring to them arguing over the intent of my posts. David said that Keller didn’t use anti-Mormon language, and I am pointing out that in my other post from that day, I quoted him using it.
I don’t like being pulled into this, even though it entertaining. Kristofer linked to the wrong post and David put words into my mouth.
November 22nd, 2009 at 6:14 pm
Hmm… good question. Maybe you could ask yourself if Mcain could have won being Mormon. There’s no doubt it hurt Romney especially since it was used as a political tool by his opponents. Did it cost him? I don’t know and I don’t think you know either.
November 22nd, 2009 at 6:19 pm
Keller is not a pastor of any church.
He sits outside of the responsibility of public office or the pastoral office and exploits religion as a club to beat his political enemies.
Those of us who are serious about the mission of the Church should be most critical of this charlatan.
November 22nd, 2009 at 6:25 pm
#2 If Romney were a Lutheran I’d not have voted for him, and I am a Lutheran.
November 22nd, 2009 at 6:28 pm
Of course Romney didn’t lose because of anti-Mormon sentiment.
But ignorant anti-Mormons, anti-Catholics, nativists, and what have you have no place in our party. They are destructive, petty individuals, and we can win without them just fine and be all the better for it. Any candidates or groups that go around appealing to some of that sentiment need a good raking over the coals by the rest of us.
November 22nd, 2009 at 6:28 pm
In 2007 Bill Keller had a mailing list of 2.4 million. Sure he is just one man and people can take or leave his opinions . . . but you can’t tell me that people stupid enough to sign up for his list are smart enough to ignore him when he says that “a vote for Romney is a vote for Satan.” Again, it’s not illegal or anything, but it speaks to some of the failings in our representative democracy.
November 22nd, 2009 at 6:29 pm
http://ethicsdaily.com/news.php?viewStory=11975
Ah . . . here’s the link.
All these topics the last few days have been a trip down Bad Memory Lane.
November 22nd, 2009 at 6:47 pm
And Harry Reid is Mormon, and I wouldn’t vote for him either.
As long as the attacks on Romney are over policy and not religion, all is fair in war and politics.
I find Tommy Oliver (the Poster) to be well reasoned, although I may not agree with all of his positions.
November 22nd, 2009 at 6:56 pm
Well, I just moved to Nevada, I’ve been a devout Mormon all my life, and there is simply no way, no how I am going to vote for that sorry excuse of a human being who goes by the name of Harry Reid next year.
November 22nd, 2009 at 7:09 pm
Seems to me that it isn’t the Latter-day Saints or even Romney supporters who are bringing this up again.
November 22nd, 2009 at 7:18 pm
#12 It’s quite shocking isn’t it.
I’m not sure why Kris would bring up the divisions from the 2007 primary season in November 2009. I don’t really get the need to start up the anti-Huckabee jihad this early when we don’t even know if he or Romney will run in 2012.
November 22nd, 2009 at 7:24 pm
Senior management has asked me to point out that this is an infamous slander. The gentlemen in question has since been relieved of his duties. As a Junior Minion in the Marketing Department, he was never authorized to formulate new policies. We would like to clarify emphatically that our policies have been eternally non-discriminatory in nature. We welcome all comers.
PS: Please be sure to bring friends and family to our Open House next week. It will be a week of fun for young and old alike. Hours will be posted on site and online.
November 22nd, 2009 at 7:25 pm
I almost forgot:
MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
November 22nd, 2009 at 7:26 pm
The more anti-Palin, anti-Huckabee and anti-Romney garbage…
the more Obama smiles.
November 22nd, 2009 at 8:00 pm
Haha, Fletch is one of the great movies of our day. Classic!
November 22nd, 2009 at 8:49 pm
A vote for Romney is a vote for Satan. So what his so wrong about that statment? With Romney bad temper, saying “f* you” to police officers, Romneys arrest record– even getting handcuffed, Romneys out of control temper with Sandy Reios, that statement may be very correct.
Romney tries to use anti Mormon as a reason for people not to question his flip flopping, and his lack luster performance as a Gov. of Mass. Questioning Romneys religion? Why not? A mans belief system is part of who the man is. If one does not know what the person believes in, or does not believe in, how can one make a judgment?
It was Romney who decided to run for President and anything and everything about him is up for grabs in making an assessment about flip flopping Mitter, including his religion — Frankly, Romney is a bore with his non stop, your picking on me because my garmies are in a continuous wedgie, and his “Biogt” non-sense he is always spouting like a spoiled child. Romney is only trying to fend off questions about himself by putting people on the defensive.
November 22nd, 2009 at 8:53 pm
18. Thanks for telling us who you are, we’ll remember it.
November 22nd, 2009 at 8:56 pm
Still, Huckabee has NO connection in this group. Steve Deace was just calling out people who said Mitt Romney was pro-life when he was not. Even Ann Coulter admitted that he was not strongly pro-life in early 2007. Deace interviews alot of people. He doesn’t work for ATL and doesn’t work for Huck. You are painting this with a broad brush. This group is a small minority and Huck is not associated with them. THey are not even from Iowa.
November 22nd, 2009 at 8:58 pm
If Mitt was an evangelical, I wouldn’t vote for him. If he was a Catholic, I wouldn’t vote for him. If he was a Baptist, I wouldn’t vote for him. Why? Because he is a flip-flopper and establishment guy.
November 22nd, 2009 at 9:00 pm
BTW, Mitt rates #4 in Iowa among ALL voters. Huck is #1, Palin #2, Newt #3, and Mitt #4 in favorables. Huck gets 70% of GOP, and 50% of Moderates (are they evangical moderates? I only thought right wing wackos would vote for him right guys?), Palin gets 60% from GOP in iowa and little moderate support. See the DesMoinesRegister poll out 1 hour ago.
November 22nd, 2009 at 9:00 pm
bpb,
You take it completely out of context. This is what is wrong with that statement:
A:
B:
Which part of this equation did you not understand?
November 22nd, 2009 at 9:07 pm
Romney lost because people do not believe him. Of course questions of his faith are going to arise, to think not is silly. At the end of the day Romney is not believable and it is why he lost Iowa.
To state all the various people are against Romney due to his religion is silly, or that they are all aligned in a particular group is not factual. Romney has many character flaws.
Reading blogs, posts, news over the past several years there are all kinds of things said about Mr. Romney.
Huck has had some class, as well as other candidates. Making fun of Mitt as he uses ‘bigots’ as an argument — maybe Romney deserves. Romney attacks many people, at times in the most underhanded of ways, for Romney to call foul shows the limited nature of his character.
Frankly, no matter what Mitts faith was, he is one man who would never get a vote here.
November 22nd, 2009 at 9:21 pm
Frankly, I take “B”. Tommy Oliver. I am sure my gggrandpa would say the same, and he was a good man who loved his family. That is why Mitt need not bother heading down home, they know all about him and what was done.
November 22nd, 2009 at 9:23 pm
Oh, it is one “g” — ggrandpa. Mitt need not bother heading down home, ggrandpa was well loved, and loved his family, and they know all about Romney and what was done. Stick to the NW Romney.
November 23rd, 2009 at 2:13 am
Keller is an anti-Mormon bigot. I don’t think there was any real question about that so I’m not sure why it needed to be cleared up – it is inconsequential to the accusations against Huckabee. And there is no link that I could find even between ARTL and Keller either. And Deace only said that he agreed with Keller that Mormons aren’t Christians – not the rest of that hate rant.
This is all just so stupidly wrong – Lorelli needs to have his privileges yanked, retractions & apologies need to be made, and the Huck-haters need to find some real meaning & purpose for their lives…
November 23rd, 2009 at 2:28 am
Who is we, windsock?
November 23rd, 2009 at 2:29 am
FTW.
November 23rd, 2009 at 2:33 am
If I were bound to a stake and set alight and Romney offered to free me in exchange for my vote, I would take my chances with the flames. I wouldn’t even have to think about it.
November 23rd, 2009 at 2:49 am
Wow . . . the freaks are really coming out now. Thanks for confirming what so many of us know/think/suspect. Anyone who thinks God would bless or sanctify them for burning at the stake rather than cast a vote for Romney has a soul better suited to radical jihadism than anything else. Oh yeah . . . and I heard they’re recruiting!!
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:02 am
Dear Waktard, it’s called hyperbole; I was making a point. I guess the term hasn’t shown up in your term-a-day vocabulary-builder calendar yet. And where did I write anything about G_d blessing or sanctifying someone, or anyone, for any reason?–what sort of projection is that?
November 23rd, 2009 at 6:28 am
d-dotan — that is a good question who is ‘we’?
People have a right to question a belief system, or a non belief system of someone, Romney needs to accept this fact. The LDS Church knew full well Romney running would bring out people questioning the bases of the LDS faith, they were hoping the conflicts which were strong and deadly in the beginning to the LDS Movment would be forgotten in memory. The abuses are not much different today, than they were years ago, which caused people to be concern over the LDS movement. The doctrine of Blood Atonement is only one of many, which was still in the temple endowments when Romney went through the temple, oaths he would have taken, and are all part of ‘we will remember’, of revenge,a justification of abuses, even on the innocent. To silence people to FTW, shows the control and censorship Romney wishes to impose on anyone questioning Romney,a blackout of any descent.
Anti means to be ‘against’, means not to accept something. People can be anti-honesty, anti-truth, anti-woman, anti-children, and anti-treating people well, everyone is anti-something, even Romney.
To accept everything is a folly – Many of the loudest critics of the LDS faith are people who were abused with the LDS organization, and know well the tactics, and the extreme levels which are reached to contain, silence and bury, the world will not kneel before the wishes of an LDS Bishop, Mr. Romney needs to learn this.
November 23rd, 2009 at 6:31 am
correction – Many of the loudest critics of the LDS faith are people who were abused within the LDS organization.
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:31 am
Anybody who has any experience with church dicipline would know that your statements are pure fantasy. You also seem to be blaming the LDS for having Missouri issue extermination-and-expel orders against the LDS. I suppose the free-soilers of Kansas also had it coming when they were massacred because of their widespread abuse of slave-owners? Is that your not-a-scrap-of-reality-based logic?
Huckabee supporters should understand that this continual jihad against the Latter-day Saints is going nowhere. It’s the 4th largest church in America, and you are only going to alienate people who aren’t drunk with furious, vitriolic hatred. It isn’t Romney supporters who are continuing this fight, but a bunch of Huckabee nuts. So I suggest we juct drop it and not use the franchise and civil rights as a blugeon to straightjacket people’s minds (including using the electoral process to force one’s religion upon another person or group).
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:29 am
One thing was spot on,
“Sadly, Michael (Jackson) grew up in the Jehovah’s Witnesses cult. This is the cult born out of the depraved mind of Charles Taze Russell and denies the very deity of Christ. You can go to Google and type in “cults Jehovah’s Witnesses” and it will give you many websites to document their false theology.”
Stay far, far away from this cult! It ruins lives and destroys families. Feel free to Google that too.
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:39 am
Kavon,
I’m wondering about bpb, and now Ellen. One of the reasons I came to race after the primary was because you didn’t tolerate these kind of comments.
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:47 am
“correction – Many of the loudest critics of the LDS faith are people who were abused within the LDS organization.
” I am no fan of Mr. Romney these days, but I for one have nothing against Church. With respect bpb, I hope that you have researched what you have said because it is foolish to go after Mr. Romney’s Church. There are plenty of policy issues to discuss that have nothing to do with the LDS faith. It Mr. Romney were a Catholic, it would not make me like him any better.
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:48 am
Or, let me say, it would not make me like his policies any better. Since I do not know him, I have little reason to like or dislike him.
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:23 am
You’ve got to be kidding me. How many more commenter like brp and Ellen are we going to get? This is ridiculous.
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:41 am
Kinda funny, though. Does anyone here, who is not LDS believe that any of us who are, would stay in a faith where members are ‘abused’?
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:52 am
Number 35, anyone who has had experience with church disciple? Don’t go there with me. It is very selective who goes before church disciple, victims of sexual abuse and other abuses are often victimized doubly by the leadership.
Anti-slavery? No, the church was for slavery, see “Romney, Perry and Skousen” and article , just google gives all three names and the article will come up on a google search, the reference to the church being for slavery, I read it a while back, most informative.
The extermination statements first came from Sidney Rigdon against the Christians of Missouri, don’t you think it his time you confront this fact. It was in an approved speech by Rigdon which Joseph Smith had published and strongly encouraged LDS members to purchase. Boggs response came months later, and he incorporated the early words of Rigdon.
Blood atonement oaths are far more reaching than what went on in Missouri. Husbands are to turn on their family and wife, if deemed to do so.
It is the Romneys which are trying to deflect and continually bring up the subject in an attempt to silence people and to keep people from questioning or responding back to Romney.
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:56 am
http://washingtonindependent.com/60224/rick-perry-mitt-romney-and-w-cleon-skousen
Here’s the link. The article and comments were most informative.
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:58 am
41# Martha Says:
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:41 am
Kinda funny, though. Does anyone here, who is not LDS believe that any of us who are, would stay in a faith where members are ‘abused’?
bpb Says: YES, to your question. Some involved in the abuses even held offices of Bishops, Stake Presidents, counselors, and even worked for LDS Social Services. People justify all kinds of wrong doing.
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:04 pm
Well bpb, I do not know exactly what carry on went on in Missouri because among other things, I am a first generation American, but I think you should be careful not to tar all Mormons with the same brush. Like all religions, I am sure they have a few characters. However, it is not fair of you to blame the whole church for the actions of a few way-word individuals. Furthermore, as I said, I am no Romneyite nor a Mormon, but this is non-sense to blame all Mormons for whatever your problem is with Mr. Romney.
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:10 pm
Church discipline? Forgive my appalling ignorance–I’m a jew–but why would a church need to “discipline” anyone? I don’t remember anything about discipline in the charming LDS promotional literature I found in a hotel once. Do you issue spankings? Wet willies? Pink bellies? and purple nurples?
I can’t imagine “synagogue discipline” going over too well among Jews, even among the black hatters. We’re a kind of free spirited lot.
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:10 pm
bpb: Please go away. If you have some abuse issues in your paste — my sympathies. Please discuss them with your therapist, but your hate is unwelcome here.
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:12 pm
That would be nonsense. Equally nonsensical is the oft-repeated accusation that if Romney strikes you as a case of arrested moral or social development, you are anti-Mormon.
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:14 pm
My post were in-response to other posters comments, and am very familiar with the LDS organization, culture, faith and its history. I do not blame all LDS people and am well aware some are in because of their heritage, and it is difficult to leave because of family strife it creates, other are TB’s. There has been many problems within the organization, which people are rising from its own ranks to confront.
I don’t see where I blamed ALL Mormons.
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:18 pm
With respect Dotan, the majority of we non-Romneyites are not anti-Mormon. However, bpb appears to be taking his anti-Romneyism against the LDS. The is nothing wrong with being against a candidate per se, I myself am anti-Romney if you will, but I do not trash his faith even though a few of them may trash other faiths.
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:21 pm
50. Aw, OJ! You were doing so well until this;
“even though a few of them may trash other faiths”
That’s just nonsense. I’ve never seen any LDS people here trash another faith.
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:22 pm
49. You must be very familiar with your own fantasy version of the LDS organization.
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:24 pm
d-d-d0tan asked. “Church discipline? Forgive my appalling ignorance–I’m a jew–but why would a church need to “discipline” anyone?”
To answer your question. The church has a discipline board, made up of its priesthood holders, stake president, bishops, counselors. The church, since it was a church/state organization the discipline board superseded government law and justice systems, the board acts today to bring wayward members before for discipline and in some cases, individuals who should have been turned over to law enforcement, have not but have faced a church discipline board. This is seen in some the current/past cases of abuses within the LDS church Boy Scouts cases which are going into court.
In the past people who merely wanted to leave the church, give up their church membership were called before the Bishops court also, discipline and excommunicated, law suits stemmed from this and people now can write a letter and leave.
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:25 pm
“That’s just nonsense. I’ve never seen any LDS people here trash another faith.” I am talking about your camp, not your faith. Let’s just say that for starters, a few in your camp did not say some nice things about Mrs. Palin’s faith. It probably did not rise to the level of trashing and to be fair, it was not as bad as what bpb said about Mr. Romney’s faith, but it is a two-way street. How soon we forget people like Shelby.
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:26 pm
# Martha Says:
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:21 pm
50. Aw, OJ! You were doing so well until this;
“even though a few of them may trash other faiths”
That’s just nonsense. I’ve never seen any LDS people here trash another faith.”
Yes, they do. Are you kidding? Of course, they do.
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:27 pm
“respect bpb, I hope that you have researched what you have said because it is foolish to go after Mr. Romney’s Church.”
Very knowledgeable on it, and well documented, to answer your question.
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:36 pm
Damn,
I should’ve realised that this would start another holy war. I was just trying to clear up where the quotes used when my name was pulled into an argument. This doesn’t have to do with Romney or Huckabee, exactly. D. Schmidt asked where Keller used Anti-LDS language, and this is where.
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:36 pm
What bpb means to say is that he’s read up on all the latest arguments on ex-mormon.org and he thinks a political forum is a great spot to discuss it.
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:37 pm
Tommy, can we please get this anti-religion crap cleaned up? It really hurts this site, IMO.
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:45 pm
59. And many Romney supporters here
… calling Mike a Mormon-Hater doesn’t?
Wake up!!!!!!
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:50 pm
I did not mean that Fredsfighter, I don’t need ex mormon.org
I am most knowledgeable on what I mentioned. It Romneyites are going to post that Huck attacked their religion then mis-quote history and facts, don’t you think it should be corrected with correct facts. His church was not ‘gone after’ posters post were responded to and in correct facts were corrected.
Romney will not win the GOP any elections, he is a poor choice, Mitt is a flipper, flopper, absent gov. of Mass. there is enough about Romney which makes him a poor candidate, just because he is Mitt.
November 23rd, 2009 at 1:01 pm
bpb, I’m a lifetime Mormon and I have taken a look at Church’s flaws as much as anyone, and you’re off your rocker. The Church has a mostly good history, with a handful of dark spots that are indeed embarrassing. I’m still waiting for someone to point out to me why this has anything to do with politics.
November 23rd, 2009 at 1:09 pm
62. Just simply move on and quit baiting Mike’s supporters by calling Huck a bigot over and over…..
Fair enough?
November 23rd, 2009 at 1:19 pm
SarahToHuck,
Here’s the deal. The last election, Huckabee would leave up the most vile anti-Mormon stuff on his official website for days, even weeks. Any anti-Huckabee posts would get scrubbed almost immediately, but the nasty anti-Mormon stuff was left there to fester.
Now, Mike himself may not be a bigot, but he most assuredly did use the bigotry of others to promote his agenda last time around.
Has he learned his lesson? I like to think so. I certainly want to give him the benefit of the doubt, and let bygones-be-bygones. However, I will be watching closely in 2011 (assuming he runs) to see if he will tolerate that garbage on his website again. That will be the proof of the pudding. Until then, I am assuming he is trying to turn over a new leaf. Things like that should be encouraged, not blasted.
November 23rd, 2009 at 1:19 pm
“bpb, I’m a lifetime Mormon and I have taken a look at Church’s flaws as much as anyone, and you’re off your rocker”
I am not off my rocker — it is so typical the name calling, and smears, it would be good if fredsfighter you did take a good look, and start with calling people “off their rocker”.
SarahtoHuckin Iowa, good post, Romneyites are baiting over and over again.
November 23rd, 2009 at 1:24 pm
#63, I didn’t know if you were being sarcastic, but just in case you weren’t, I haven’t spend much time calling Huck a bigot (even though I think he is).
November 23rd, 2009 at 2:16 pm
Dotan,
Nice to see you back BTW,
People are brought up before church counsels for publicly attacking the church. The most prominent cases happened when overzealots for the Equal Rights Amendments publicly opposed the church’s stance or more recenly when a BYU professor publicly criticized the church’s stance on Gay Marriage. The church has always limited it’s authority to church membership–not life, limb, liberty, and property as some viscious Anti-LDS people have alleged. You can also be excommunicated from church fellowship by killing people, having an abortion, adultery, etc. However, people are still free to attend public church meetings. I know of one gay couple who go to church even though they are ‘excommunicated’.
I agree with FredsFighter, I don’t call for censurship often, but to claim the extermination order, and rape/murder of hundreds of Latter-day Saints during the expulsion from Missouri was a *JUST* and *APPROPRIATE* response to alleged Latter-day Saint crimes is highly offensive and contrary to the public record.
November 23rd, 2009 at 2:16 pm
I always feel uncomfortable whenever I am around someone who attacks a church. It doesn’t matter which one. If “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God”, what are the contention makers called?
Our Lord more than once told his followers to “Leave them alone” when dealing with another faith. On one such occasion he said they should just let the Father deal with it. He likened the other faith to “the blind leading the blind”.
And of course there is this excellent advice from Gamaliel found in the fifth chapter of Acts:
So I try not to criticize churches. I used to quite a bit, but that was when I was young and foolish and thought I knew everything. I have since learned to just present the truths about my church and leave it at that.
The same works in politics. That is why I try to spend most of my time building up, and less of it tearing down. I will even defend the other guy if I think he is getting the wrong end of the stick. I remember one thread where I was defending Huckabee, and MWS was attacking him. That was a memorable one.
November 23rd, 2009 at 2:19 pm
bpb’s remarks rise perilously to the level of jihadi revisionist history and holocaust denial. I suggest they should take no part in the discussion here.
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:11 pm
Thank you, Mark : )
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:13 pm
” I haven’t spend much time calling Huck a bigot (even though I think he is).”
And why shouldn’t you be banned?
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:13 pm
Fred?
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:20 pm
Sarah, are you serious? I just said that I haven’t made comments like that (excluding the obvious exception in #66, of course. I didn’t want to give the idea that I don’t think that).
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:31 pm
‘I agree with FredsFighter, I don’t call for censurship often, but to claim the extermination order, and rape/murder of hundreds of Latter-day Saints during the expulsion from Missouri was a *JUST* and *APPROPRIATE* response to alleged Latter-day Saint crimes is highly offensive and contrary to the public record.’
Dear a great many rapes have been covered up by the ‘church’, what a high horse to be on. The conflict in Missouri, also was incited by people of the Mormon faith, which you should own up to Fredthefighter. The extermination statement came from Mormon Sidney Rigdon to exterminate the people of Missouri in a war to the last drop of blood. That is history, that is what happened. This statement happened months before Boggs response, and please remember someone tried to shoot Boggs in his home, fingers point to hit man Porter Rockwell, JS lead hit man. Rigdons statement was made during a July 4th speech, supported by Joseph Smith, sorry if you were taught wrong in Sunday School, Mutual, Priesthood meeting, most of us grow up and begin to learn where we were mis taught during our church instruction, sorry you have not.
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:39 pm
bpb, I can assure you that I am at least as familiar with Mormon history as you are, and can tell you that just because the Church doesn’t have in-depth discussions about the darker parts of its history (I can sympathize with this stance somewhat), it doesn’t mean that all Mormons don’t know their history, or that your interpretation of history is correct.
As I’ve said before, let’s stick with politics. If you want to discuss Mormon history with the people who aren’t afraid to lay it all out on the table, try mormonmatters.org.
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:46 pm
bpb,
What other conspiracy theories do you believe in? Are you a 9-11 truther who has concrete physical evidence showing Bush took the towers down, and do you think that the Jews have a secret conspiracy to take over world government and media? Do you believe that Palistinian terrorist shelling primary schools is morally equivalent to Israeli attacks against Hamas? Do you think Huckabee is going to usher in the end of the world; fight-to-the-finish against your percieved satan’s minions? Is that a figure in your political calculus?
Typically, birds of your feather of kooky conspiracy theorist flock together; so I wouldn’t be suprised.
I hate to say this, but Huckabee has ingratiated himself with these wacko fringies. If you disagree, I would like any of you to show me one example of a group that has multi-million people mailing lists (yes, Martha can be a bit extreme–but she’s just one person) who are supporters of Romney or Palin who put out this kind of vitriolic garbage…
Waiting…
November 23rd, 2009 at 4:14 pm
I got an “A” in both my Book of Mormon Classes. How about you? Did well in the other class also.
Like you say ‘Birds of a Feather Flock together”, and I was not the first to bring up Missouri, only corrected the mis facts.
Let’s talk politics, must be why religious people are shown in pictures on this thread, and a YOU TUBE also — political right?
November 23rd, 2009 at 4:20 pm
“What other conspiracy theories do you believe in?” Romney is a conspiracy to be a flipper flopper.
November 23rd, 2009 at 4:22 pm
bpb, I never took a graded seminary or institute class; I learned most of what I know from reading books (yes, I mean non-Church-sanctioned history books). Also, the point of a Book of Mormon class is typically to teach doctrines and bring students to Christ, not teach cold hard history.
Maybe you’re upset because you feel that there’s lots of Church history that isn’t found in the Sunday School manuals, in which case I can sympathize. But I’m still wondering what that has do do with this forum…?
November 23rd, 2009 at 5:40 pm
74. What a load of hooey.
You are a bitter man, my friend.
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:39 pm
Your right Martha, Fred does seem to be a bitter man. Thanks for mentioning it.
Ahhhh…… you studied books Fred……..I take it, it was a narrow selection of readings. Sunday School manuals don’t cut it, neither do ‘road shows’.
Why BoM classes teaches the history of America, you must not have read it, you know Nehpi and gang. What do you mean it is not to teach history? The Jewish American Indians, the evil ones who’s skin was turned dark, as a curse. Why, it was to educate the American Indians that they were jewish. What do you mean it wasn’t history?
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:54 pm
bpb, I know you’re just trolling, but if you want a list, here are some:
No Man Knows My History, Fawn Brodie
Rough Stone Rolling, Richard Bushman
In Sacred Loneliness, by Todd Compton
The Mormon Experience, by Leonard Arrington
The Mormon Hierarchy, Michael Quinn
I dare you to tell me that’s a “narrow selection” that sticks to what is found in Sunday School manuals. Each of those authors is well-respected for handling the truth very openly and candidly.
As far as history goes, Sunday School manuals and Book of Mormon seminary classes only use history inasmuch as it’s useful for promoting an understanding of a certain doctrinal or faith-based principle. And many of the teachers of those classes don’t know much about Church history in the first place.
November 24th, 2009 at 11:40 am
Great news, mittwits. Shout it from the rooftops.
Poll: Romney’s favorables now below 50% among Republicans?
http://hotair.com/archives/2009/11/23/poll-romneys-favorables-now-below-50-among-republicans/
Money quote: